A few questions regarding Bladed Irons vs. Game Improvement Irons

[TennisGolf Love]

Greetings all,

A little background:

I've been an avid tennis player and teaching professional for many years.  When I started playing tennis, I was overwhelmed with the equipment choices and took it upon myself to learn all I could.  In tennis you have what are referred to as Game-Improvement Racquets and Player's Racquets. I firmly believe my choice of racquet(s) in the beginning helped forge me into the player I am today.

G.I. Racquets

Game-improvement rackets are the result of all the modern technology available to manufacturers.  The game-improvement are designed for beginner to intermediate players who lack ability to generate the power and control of an advanced player with much more developed form/technique.  In comparison to a "Player-Frame", the biggest differences are usually:

-Very light weight

-Oversized head (greater than 100 square inches in area)

-Thicker beams (shaft)

So, without going any further into the details of racquet design, these changes make it "easier" for lesser-skilled players to hit decent shots and play a more enjoyable game.    They provide enhanced power (thicker beams and greater trampoline effect with large headsize), larger sweetspots (with the larger headsize) which also reduces shanking, and greater mobility (from the lighter weight).  Game-improvement frames are also considered to be more forgiving and feature greatly reduced feedback (vibration) on mishits.These racquets are wonderful for players who are happy with their game and have no real desire to put in the immense effort normally required to improve stroke mechanics.

However, for anyone who aspires to attain a higher level of proficiency, these racquets can be a poor choice in the long-run.  Despite the advantages offered, game-improvement frames sometimes lead to poor form fundamentals, as they allow players to mask deficiencies in their tennis game on many levels.

Player's Frames (Tour Racquets)

- Usually significantly heavier

- Generally a headsize no greater than 100 square inches

- Thinner beams for greater feel

The design of most player frames combines minimal modern technology with old-school purity.  Basically, a player's racquet is a much more demanding tool and beginner to intermediate level players may struggle, but in the right hands it becomes a surgeon's scalpel.  If you have good fundamentals, a players frame will reward you....etc.

Anyway, that being said, there are some exceptions to these rules.  The Williams sisters, for instance, use a 104 square inch headsize, but it suits their game which is built on pure dominating power as opposed to precision.  Rafael Nadal, generally considered to be the greatest clay-court player of all time, uses a 100square inch racquet with a "lighter" frame than "normal" for a male player with his athletic ability, but it fits his game (and his actual racquet is altered and has added weight compared to the retail version).  Roger Federer would be on the other end of the spectrum and uses a Racquet that is heavier and smaller headed than any other player on the Tour.  Fed's game is also built on precision and is a unique blend of old-school and new-school play.

I chose to start playing tennis with a player's frame and it wasn't easy, but it didn't allow me to "cheat" with my technique.  When I hit the ball well, it felt deliciously crisp and buttery...like a laser beam straight off my racquet to my intended target.  When I shanked the ball, my racquet provided uncomfortable (vibrating) but direct and accurate feedback.  The learning curve was steep and frustrating, but over time I chiseled away the rough edges and eventually developed a very nice game.

Blah blah blah...

Anyway, so I recently decided to take up golf.  I am now completely addicted and actually a little scared it may replace tennis as my #1 favorite sport, something I never anticipated!

My perspective on golf and golf equipment is very much influenced by my tennis experience(s), as there seem to be so many parallels between the two sports.  I currently own a set of used clubs that were gifted to me.  After some research I've learned my clubs are "cavity-backs", the equivalent of game-improvement tennis racquets.  I plan to approach golf the way I did with tennis, so as you may already be guessing, I am leaning toward purchasing a set of bladed irons, and herein lies my dilemma.

I have many questions for you knowledgeable players and teachers so here goes:

1. Should I buy new or used, considering I'm learning? Do the grooves on the face of the club make so much of a difference for backspin that I need clubs with fresh faces or would an old set with worn club faces be just as good?  I don't mind spending the money for new clubs, but only if it's necessary.  I also don't mind because a set like this can pretty much stay with me until I die from what I've read.

2. Which brands are the best? For the money everything I've read leans toward Mizuno blades.  I've been looking at the MP-69's.

3. How old can I go? Assuming I can get an old set of used blades cheaply off of Ebay where do I draw the line?

4. Shafts?  Steel or Graphite? Why?

5. Fitted?  Does it really matter that much?

As I think of more questions I'll post them.  I think that covers my main concerns for now.

Thanks in advance for any and all help/information!

[TennisGolf Love]

One more thing...any advice in this area would be appreciated, not just direct answers to my main questions.

Thanks again 8)

[The Tin Man]

To start off  the Blade vs Cavity controversy is like a religious war and just as stupid.  With golf we have 14 different rackets. Learning to play with a blade 3 iron is not easy, the 9 iron is no big deal. Good hand to eye coordination is what matters most. (On a bad day a more forgiving club is not going to help me when my hips don't want to turn.)

Solution: Buy used and buy two sets. There's no rule against playing a mixed set. (I would start with  forged cavity backs and go from there. It's nice to have a set of clubs that are not to demanding as the baseline.)

Cavity Backs for 4-7.  Blades for 7,8,9  The 7 iron is where the change occurs with me. That's why I have two sets.  (Mizuno JPX-800 Pros and MP -67's.)

Forged vs Cast is another religious war. However, forged irons are more adjustable then cast. (nobody argues about that.)

Irons: Graphite is easier on your body and more flex can be designed in for slower swing speeds. Most blades come with steel for fast swing speeds. Woods/Driver: Nobody plays steel shafts anymore.

No brand is best, but some like Mizuno and Titlist don't bother with the lower end of the market.

With irons there's been no real technology break though in the last 5 years or so. (The exception being graphite shafts that keep getting better. With steel nothings changed.)

Unless your playing in tournaments grooves are an non issue.

Fitting is as good as whoever fits you. (Beware the sporting good store.)

The internet is full of counterfit crap - quality clubs are NOT discounted!

[Bullitt5339]

As a former tennis player also, I would try to sway you away from trying the same technique.  The differences in raquets, while the terminology is similar is not as large as the difference between blades and game improvement irons.  There's no quicker way to hate golf and give up on the game than to try to play blades as a beginner.  To be honest with you, I don't see much use in true blades at all anymore.  I bought a set of player's cavity backs once I was a 20 handicap (my current MP-57's) and have worked my way down to a 14 now using them.  They will allow me to do anything I need to with the golf ball, but still have just enough forgiveness to keep the game manageable when I'm not 100% on it.

My recommendation for clubs that will grow with you all the way to single digits and better are clubs (assuming Mizuno, since you mentioned them) like the JPX-800 Pro or if you're willing to put the work in, the MP-59's.  There's no way I would be looking at the MP-69s if I was you.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by TennisGolf Love

. . . However, for anyone who aspires . . .

I aspire.

[Elmer Fudd]

It's apparent that you like to think about your play and I can promise you that golf will tax your brain like no other sport. You are obviously athletic if your tennis play improved and became satisfactory. This will help in golf as the  tennis swing, like baseball offers a lot of similarities to the golf swing. If you are average in size finding a used set of clubs or a cheap set of starter clubs will be simple. Just like tennis you have to start swinging to realize what information works for you and it will take time before you have clue what you want or need in clubs. If you are like most people including myself your opinions will change and you will experiment with different equipment and techniques. Your swing speed will increase with time as you learn to strike the ball and making an educated one time purchase is nearly impossible. Matching the flex of your clubs to the speed of your swing will become more important than the particular brand shape style or popularity of the irons that you drool over.  Unless you are extremely tall or short or have arms like a gorilla or a lizard just by a standard set that's affordable and start playing. If you fit the non average build or are extremely athletic and powerful don't spend a nickle until getting fit by someone that is properly trained; the golf pro at your local course can probably save you some grief here. If you are still playing after a few months and feel the helpless addiction taking hold, spend the money on swing lessons so you don't fight your own monster of creation. I personally like forged blades and have seen absolutely no difference in my scores with either style of clubs, but hope to improve my game with the feedback of blades. I started with cavity back clubs a few years ago and it might be the best way to go until you know this is the game for you and you want to work as much as you play. I like practicing at the range and on the practice green more than any of my playing partners. Good luck and the worst you can do is spend too much money and change your mind. You won't be the first to make that mistake and you may just learn something in the process.

[RGoosen]

As a former college tennis player and former tennis instructor I can certainly relate to your situation.

I used the same Head Prestige Tour mid-plus tennis racquet for over a decade before I gave the game up.  If you don't remember the racquet, it is the one Goran Ivanisevic used.

Game-improvement tennis racquets and game-improvement golf irons are worlds apart.  I quit playing tennis in 2005 b/c I got burned out and I picked up golf the same year.  I bought a previous years clearance golf iron set and played with it one year before I got "custom fit."  I have been fit for irons three times since 2005.  I've played mild-moderate game improvement irons, went to muscle back, and I have now gone back to mild-moderate game improvement irons.

This is my take on it...

You will probably love to hit blade and muscle back irons up until a certain distance.  The problem you will find is there will be a certain distance that you will have trouble hitting the sweet spot and it can be frustrating.  I did play muscle back irons for four years.  I found that the clubs from my pitching wedge up to 7 iron were easy to hit and find the sweet spot.  The 4, 5, and 6 iron were a different story.  I could never hit them well and therefore I played poorly between 170-200 yards.

IMO...blades and muscle-backs are for scratch golfers only.

I've gone back to a mid-level game improvement iron set for the last 5 months (Mizuno jpx-800) and I don't have a problem hitting my 4, 5, or 6 iron anymore.  I shoot in the 70's - low 80's every weekend with small cavity backs and I don't plan on going back to a muscle back iron at any point in time.

[WUTiger]

Golf clubs fall into different categories according to "playability," how user-friendly the clubs are. The original categories came from golf engineer Ralph Maltby, who designed the Maltby Playability Factor. MPF rates clubheads using a six-factor equation which measures various aspects of the clubhead. The original MPF has seven categories of clubs (see below).

Check out Maltby's website for info on club design, proper shafts, etc. http://ralphmaltby.com/

Golf Digest has collapsed the MPF concept into a three-category system based more upon the club model's market niche than an equation: Player's, Game Improvement, and Super Game Improvement. Find the January GD new equipment issue, and you can see which clubs fall into which category.

Clubhead design plus type of shaft combine to determine performance characteristics of the club.

Some advice on getting started: take a few lessons at the beginning to make sure you have the basics down. Since you're just learning about golf, ask friends for a reputable golf shop where you can test out various clubs. Sometimes you can combine lessons with a search for your first set of clubs.

Stay away from eBay. You need to be able to test out the clubs, make sure they fit (see below). Eventually you could find items online, but wait until you understand the game better.

Fitting: Get a basic static fitting. This checks clubs to make sure shaft length and lie angle - how flat or upright the shaft sets at address - fit your height and stance. Also, make sure the grip is not too big or too small for your hands, and that the shaft is the right flex for you. A good clubsmith can tweak the clubs if needed (even used ones).

After you've been playing for a couple of years, if you really get into the sport, you might get a dynamic fitting. This complex fitting takes several hours and measures all parts of your golf swing, and helps you select club types from the performance data. Dynamic fittings don't do much for beginners, because their swings vary a lot from day to day. You need a stable - not a perfect - swing to benefit from a dynamic fitting.

In the early going, you probably want to use GI or SGI clubs.

Quote: As TinMan said...

To start off  the Blade vs Cavity controversy is like a religious war and just as stupid.

Start off with decent used clubs which are hittable for beginners. Then, when you get to the point your clubs are "holding you back," upgrade.

[x129]

Why play a modern forgiving blade like the 69s? Why not go on eBay and get some vintage blade from the 70s/80s that will be much tougher to hit?

This really isn't an either or thing. Your club choice doesn't need to be between the RBZ max improvement and a mizuno 69. You could get any number of player cavity backs that have all the feedback and workability that you want with a bit of forgiveness. Even at the top it is something like 50/50 between blades and player cavities and the blade players often sub in some easier to hit clubs for the 2 or 3 iron. Golf and Tennis are a bit different sports. Tennis is more about your good shots while golf is making sure your bad shots are not too bad.

But if you want to play the 69s, go ahead. No one will care.  Fitting is always a toss up for beginners. Your swing and swing speed are likely to change over the first couple months quite a bit so a fitting can be a bit of waste. On the other hand if you need different sizes (i.e.+1) you can mess up your swing a bit by playing the wrong ones.

[TennisGolf Love]

Seriously, thanks so much guys.  You've answered my questions so well, and given me enough to chew on for a while.  This is exactly the sort of information I've been looking for; it's becoming apparent that golf club variance is a little more complex than it is for tennis racquets.  Getting the opinions of people like yourselves really helps me cut through all the crap and narrow it down.

Learning the game properly is my primary concern.  I don't mind going through the steep learning curve, even if it takes years, as long as I know I'm doing it the right way and progressing.  My goal is to eventually shape shots, learn to hit proper backspin, etc., so my "thinking" is I don't want clubs that mask my swing defects.

Thanks for the heads up on the MPF chart.  I'm going to delve into it later tonight when I have some time.

P.S. - I was browsing a local golf store today and saw a used set (4-PW) of Titleist 690 MB's for $110, so I figured what the hell...I can always return in 30 days if I absolutely hate them.

[dak4n6]

TLG, I can tell you really know your tennis stuff, and you will be a successful golfer for sure. Great question, great thread for me because I am almost the exact inverse of your situation.

I have played golf for 25 years now, but I came back to tennis recently after having played 30 yrs ago in HS. I started with big light stiff granny sticks and my skills stayed the same for a couple years until I started reading up on the differences in rackets. Then I got a LM Rad MP, graduated to a Bab PSL, and now I play with a KPS 88 (!), Redondo Mid, and Head SpeedPro. During this time my level advanced and I am currently a 5.0. However I really doubt I would have progressed as well with my granny stick because  1) Feedback - I couldn't really feel the difference between a good shot and a bad shot, or where a miss occured  2) A short punching type stroke was good enough to get the job done so I didn't need to develop my strokes.  But, when I started using 'players' sticks, I found immediate and detailed feedback on shots, I learned how to swing out on a ball, and obtained much more control.  I found I could start putting the ball on the proverbial dime. And, as you know, the feel of crushing a ball with a thin beamed heavy is just delicious.

Well, IMO, it's pretty much the same with golf clubs.  I had the same progression with my irons as with my rackets, although drawn out over more time.  I played for about 15 years with various cavity back GI clubs, and I did make progress.  However, about 10 years ago I purchased some MacGregor VIP forged musclebacks and my eyes were opened to the world of feel and control.  I discovered that most of my egregious misses were either fat or thin, and I don't care what anyone says no amount of perimeter weighting is going to make a chunk a good shot (OK, there is cambering and sole shaping, but still a chunk is a chunk and a skank is a skank).  Likewise, most hackers with that uncontrolable slice have big time plane and swing path issues that again, GI engineering is just not going to cure.  So, in the end, I think that yes, GI will buy you a bit of forgiveness, but at the price of feel and response.  Response is the key word.  Players clubs will respond much better to the swing and the type of contact you make.  They might make your early progress a little harder, but you sound like you're a good athlete with good hand-eye (GI clubs have a big following due in part to a lot of un-athletic people playing the game).  Lastly, I just can't abide by the looks of today's GI clubs, and some say that looks have nothing to do with performance, but I vigorously disagree.  Looks inspire confidence, and confidence is incredibly important in golf.  I sometimes pull a big ol' GI iron off the wall when I'm at Dick's, put it down at address, and just about puke while wondering how does one get that big huge rolled cambered leading edge into the little space between the back of the ball and the ground?

Anyways, I guess a compromise answer if you have the funds would be, as someone suggested, get yourself both.  I would get a used set of GI clubs, and a beautiful shiny set of Zuno's or other player's club (FYI, MacGregor made a blade called the MT Pro that is discontinued but can still be found new here and there, and they are quite the bargain).  Use the GI clubs at the start and once you are making good contact, start infusing the good stuff.  Good luck with your journey!

BTW, for the past 5 yrs tennis had been overtaking golf as my primary sport, but I just joined a country club, I'm playing golf a lot, and I think my rackets are going to file for a divorce.

[Bullitt5339]

I think the MPF is a load of crap, at least from my experience.  He lists my current irons as having a rating of 411, which puts them in the "Conventional" rating and says they are good for people from a 0-5 handicap and anyone else should move up.  I hit the MP-57's a lot better than I do any of the shovels that he rates as made for my handicap level.  My last clubs (as a 20+ handicap then) were Cleveland CG Golds, which are listed as a Game Improvement club, and I couldn't hit those to save my life.  I was properly fitted and was still a hook monster with them.  I noticed immediate improvement when I hit the MP-57's.

No matter what any book says about clubs, the only way to know if they fit your game and swing style is to try them out.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Bullitt5339

I think the MPF is a load of crap, at least from my experience.  He lists my current irons as having a rating of 411, which puts them in the "Conventional" rating and says they are good for people from a 0-5 handicap and anyone else should move up.  I hit the MP-57's a lot better than I do any of the shovels that he rates as made for my handicap level.  My last clubs (as a 20+ handicap then) were Cleveland CG Golds, which are listed as a Game Improvement club, and I couldn't hit those to save my life.  I was properly fitted and was still a hook monster with them.  I noticed immediate improvement when I hit the MP-57's.

No matter what any book says about clubs, the only way to know if they fit your game and swing style is to try them out.

Assuming the irons have a grind I like, I use the Maltby list in reverse order. The irons with the lowest scores are the ones I want to try.

[The Tin Man]

I tried to play a round with Ultra Game Improvement Irons with a very high Maltby rating.

Lots of offset, long shafts, heads shaped like hybrids......I couldn't get the ball in the air.

After borrowing old rusty blades with rock hard grips from the junk barrel I got my game back. (Probably on the bottom of the list.)

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Assuming the irons have a grind I like, I use the Maltby list in reverse order. The irons with the lowest scores are the ones I want to try.

I have a set of Titleist AC108s, 3-PW with the original shafts and grips. MPF is -412, which makes them by your criteria the third best irons out there... I'd sell them in a heartbeat if I could get like 50$ for the set.

I generally agree that MPF is flawed, but they sure got those sticks on the right part of the list. Small sweet spot, high CG, thin sole. What makes them negatively rated is the negative bounce . Also the sole is totally flat, with no camber or relief, sharp leading edge, and they sit wide open. It's no small wonder I learned to flip and hit slices with those irons, and got afraid of the ground when I was learning. They dig aggressively and it's only made worse if you shut the face or deloft them. You have to either pick the ball, hit it thin, or lay the face open even on mid irons. I agree that the grind is everything.