Ball on Cart Path, nearest relief is back on the tee?

[bmartin461]

Yesterday I was playing a canyon course, hit a driver short into the natural area between the tee and the fairway.  Local rules had the natural areas deemed "lateral hazards".

I hit a second drive thinking my first was lost, but when we made our way down the cart path it winded down and was perpendicular to the fairway and that is where I found my first ball.  The nearest point of relief would have been in the natural area all around me so we decided the right option for relief would have been back on the tee, and thus we used my second ball without penalty.

I'm not sure if this was a correct action or not.

Thanks!

Brad

[Johanna]

From the information you have given, I think your second ball was the ball in play but you should have added 1 penalty stroke.

What do you mean with a "natural area"?

[x129]

That isn't correct. If you find the first ball you can not play your provisional.  http://golf.about.com/cs/rulesofgolf/a/rule27.htm  The reasons for this are pretty obvious.

In a casual match I would probably let you just take a stroke penalty and play the provisional for pace of play issues but that is definitely a ruling that favors you and not your playing partners.

Originally Posted by bmartin461

Yesterday I was playing a canyon course, hit a driver short into the natural area between the tee and the fairway.  Local rules had the natural areas deemed "lateral hazards".

I hit a second drive thinking my first was lost, but when we made our way down the cart path it winded down and was perpendicular to the fairway and that is where I found my first ball.  The nearest point of relief would have been in the natural area all around me so we decided the right option for relief would have been back on the tee, and thus we used my second ball without penalty.

I'm not sure if this was a correct action or not.

Thanks!

Brad

[szaino]

Here are some aspects of the rules

- If you thought that the first ball went into the hazard, you can't play a provisional. A provisional is only for balls lost (outside a water hazard) or OB.

- If you think the first might be lost or OB, then in order for you to play a 2nd ball as a provisional, you must first declare it as such with the word "provisional" and it must be played before you go look for the first ball.

You are using the word provisional in your description, but, what it sounds like is as follows:

- Your first ball went into a hazard, which was virtually certain from what you describe (even though it ended up outside the hazard).

- And, when you played the 2nd ball from the tee, which is what one of your options would be for a ball in a hazard, that became the ball in play. Whether or not you found your original ball no longer matters.

You ended up playing the correct ball for all the wrong reasons.

There is a penalty stroke involved, so you lie 3 wherever the 2nd tee shot came to rest.

Even if you mistakenly announced the 2nd ball as a "provisional", it would not be a provisional, but the ball in play.

[iacas]

Courses shouldn't mark non-hazards as hazards. It sounds like they did this to speed play and the area wasn't actually a water hazard. This one doesn't sound like a water hazard at all, but even if it was a pond, it doesn't sound like a LATERAL hazard.

Your nearest point of relief could very well have been on the tee, sure. But that doesn't mean you get to re-tee. You have to drop.

And this assumes that the cart path is outside of the hazard, because otherwise if it's part of the hazard, I don't imagine you get to drop off it regardless (not many cart paths are "part" of hazards simply because hazards are bunkers and water, or are supposed to be, and nobody puts cart paths go through ponds or bunkers.)

I'm not addressing the provisional stuff, just how you'd play it if a cart path went through an actual hazard.

[szaino]

Re-teeing the ball is perfectly OK.

Whether in a hazard, unplayable, or lost, you always have the additional option to replay your last shot. If that happened to be from a teeing area then you may certainly tee the ball up.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by szaino

Re-teeing the ball is perfectly OK.

Not if you're taking a free relief from a cart path.

For example, I've seen cart paths go through marshes, and you can technically take relief from the cart path because you're not in the hazard.

[szaino]

The original post has nothing to do with free relief from a cart path, he played the correct ball for all the wrong reasons and incurred a penalty stroke.

You are correct-

If you are taking relief from the cart path, you get 1 club length, no nearer the hole, from the nearest point of relief. So you would not be able to re tee the ball if this happens to fall on the teeing area. It must be dropped. You can not drop in a hazard or putting green.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by szaino

Here are some aspects of the rules

- If you thought that the first ball went into the hazard, you can't play a provisional. A provisional is only for balls lost (outside a water hazard) or OB.

- If you think the first might be lost or OB, then in order for you to play a 2nd ball as a provisional, you must first declare it as such with the word "provisional" and it must be played before you go look for the first ball.

You are using the word provisional in your description, but, what it sounds like is as follows:

- Your first ball went into a hazard, which was virtually certain from what you describe (even though it ended up outside the hazard).

- And, when you played the 2nd ball from the tee, which is what one of your options would be for a ball in a hazard, that became the ball in play. Whether or not you found your original ball no longer matters.

You ended up playing the correct ball for all the wrong reasons.

There is a penalty stroke involved, so you lie 3 wherever the 2nd tee shot came to rest.

Even if you mistakenly announced the 2nd ball as a "provisional", it would not be a provisional, but the ball in play.

The description of the events is a little sketchy but I think szaino is the closest.  If there was virtual certainty that the ball was lost in a hazard, I think szaino has the correct ruling. I'm not certain of known or virtual certainty, however.  The OP said he thought his tee shot was "lost' so he hit a second ball. I did not see where he mentioned the word "provisional".  If there was not virtual certainty, then the second tee shot would still be his ball in play, however he would be playing under 27-1 not 26-1.  Score would be the same however.

I think the only way the original tee shot could have been played, is if the first tee shot could have been lost outside the hazard, and the player announced that his second shot would be a provisional.

As far as the discussion involving dropping from the path, I just don't have enough information.....but ......... I don't think it was the ball in play.

Anyway, that's my guess.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by szaino

If you are taking relief from the cart path, you get 1 club length, no nearer the hole, from the nearest point of relief. So you would not be able to re tee the ball if this happens to fall on the teeing area. It must be dropped.

If he did in fact play it from a tee in that situation he would be deemed to be playing under the appropriate rule ie 27-1a (S&D;) rather than 2sp under 13-2 or 24-2

[iacas]

Originally Posted by szaino

The original post has nothing to do with free relief from a cart path, he played the correct ball for all the wrong reasons and incurred a penalty stroke.

I don't think that's been determined. The title is "ball on cart path" and, ignoring the "provisional" that wasn't really a provisional, he seems to be asking about the ball on a cart path (possibly in a hazard that perhaps shouldn't be marked as a hazard).

Would be nice if the OP could clarify some things.

[x129]

The OP clearly thought he hit a provisional because the first ball was lost in a "natural area".   I have no clue if he followed proper procedure or not but the intent seems clear.  Otherwise what is the question? The first ball is dead after he hits the second one and there is no cart path involved.

Originally Posted by szaino

The original post has nothing to do with free relief from a cart path, he played the correct ball for all the wrong reasons and incurred a penalty stroke.

You are correct-

If you are taking relief from the cart path, you get 1 club length, no nearer the hole, from the nearest point of relief. So you would not be able to re tee the ball if this happens to fall on the teeing area. It must be dropped. You can not drop in a hazard or putting green.

[bmartin461]

I didn't declare outright the second as provisional.  I hit it thinking my first was lost and thus re-teed a second under penalty.

The first one was found on a cart path that ran through a natural area, the natural areas of this course are marked as lateral hazard via the local rules on the scorecard.

My partner and I both agreed to the result, but we both felt we were not 100% sure how to proceed.

Thanks for the feedback, it looks like I need to add a penalty stroke to my score.

Brad

[iacas]

Originally Posted by bmartin461

I didn't declare outright the second as provisional.  I hit it thinking my first was lost and thus re-teed a second under penalty.

Then that ball was in play.

You can only declare a provisional when you think it's lost or OB. And you have to declare it's a provisional. I'm sure you know both of those things by now.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by x129

That isn't correct. If you find the first ball you can not play your provisional.  http://golf.about.com/cs/rulesofgolf/a/rule27.htm  The reasons for this are pretty obvious.

In a casual match I would probably let you just take a stroke penalty and play the provisional for pace of play issues but that is definitely a ruling that favors you and not your playing partners.

He never said anything about playing a provisional ball.  He said he hit a second drive thinking the first ball was lost.  What that translates to is he proceeded under stroke and distance, lying 3, hitting 4.

Originally Posted by x129

The OP clearly thought he hit a provisional because the first ball was lost in a "natural area".   I have no clue if he followed proper procedure or not but the intent seems clear.  Otherwise what is the question? The first ball is dead after he hits the second one and there is no cart path involved.

The "natural area" was a lateral water hazard by course policy.  Rule 26 would apply.

Originally Posted by iacas

Not if you're taking a free relief from a cart path.

For example, I've seen cart paths go through marshes, and you can technically take relief from the cart path because you're not in the hazard.

On my home course any cart path or bridge on the course lying within the boundary of a water hazard was marked as being in the hazard, thus there was no relief from them (no relief from an immovable obstruction in a hazard).  This made a lot of decisions easier - play the ball as it lies or proceed under Rule 26.

[bmartin461]

Ok, I got it now.  I did not declare provisional as the ball was so far into the natural area doing so seemed pointless.  When we happened across the ball on the cart path it spawned the discussion on what would be the ruling.

We kept my original in play to assist with speed of play, agreeing no penalty, but clearly this was wrong.

My playing partner and I both try to follow all the rules, but this one was somewhat unique.

Thanks for all the feedback.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

On my home course any cart path or bridge on the course lying within the boundary of a water hazard was marked as being in the hazard, thus there was no relief from them (no relief from an immovable obstruction in a hazard).  This made a lot of decisions easier - play the ball as it lies or proceed under Rule 26.

That's probably the way I'd go, but I know of a few courses with paths through marshes as I said, and they have stakes on each side of the path (more like a bridge). I don't imagine in those cases it really comes into play very often. :)

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by bmartin461

I didn't declare outright the second as provisional.  I hit it thinking my first was lost and thus re-teed a second under penalty.

The first one was found on a cart path that ran through a natural area, the natural areas of this course are marked as lateral hazard via the local rules on the scorecard.

My partner and I both agreed to the result, but we both felt we were not 100% sure how to proceed.

Thanks for the feedback, it looks like I need to add a penalty stroke to my score.

Brad

Wouldn't you need to add 2 penalty strokes to your score?  Your 2nd tee shot would have been your third shot.