Pros tapping down ground on line of putt

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Paradox

I would say that back when greens weren't so smooth, it would have been a big advantage to "smooth" your line to get a better role.  This is probably a rule that no one ever really brings up because they don't pay it any mind..so its never been changed.

The only time I'd call someone on things like that is if they were somehow brushing the green with their putter for some reason...something completely blatant.

Actually back in the day of much slower greens, spike marks weren't as much of an obstacle as they are now with such pristine, pool table smooth turf.  It's one of those things that needs to be revisited, but until they do, it's still not allowed.  The greens on my home course are very firm.  Soft spikes do not leave a significant impression, while metal ones can raise a little tuft that can affect a putt.  Thankfully my course banned metal spikes many, many years ago.

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by Alistair

Also, I have seen several players, after holing out, go back over their previous line of putt, and tap down the ground - presumably repairing spike marks. But that is before other players have holed out.  Are they not supposed to wait before dealing with spike marks until every player has finished?

Anyone able to give an authoritative reply to this point in the original question?  Can you repair spike marks as soon as you have holed out or only when all players in your group have holed out?

Since nearly all pros walk to the edge of the green after they have finished, and then head off to the next tee from there, they are not going back to repair spike marks after the last player's putt drops.  So, either they are not repairing spike marks or they are doing it before everyone has finished play.

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by camper6

I think the only reason for the rule in the first place was that it would take forever for some guys to putt out if they could pave their way to the hole.

A tournament at our club once.  The rule was waived and spike marks could be tamped down.

It took forever to finish the round.

I know competition committees invent their own rules, but of course the actual Rules of Golf forbids waiving a rule of golf:

33-1 . Conditions; Waiving Rule

The Committee must establish the conditions under which a competition is to be played.

The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Alistair

Anyone able to give an authoritative reply to this point in the original question?  Can you repair spike marks as soon as you have holed out or only when all players in your group have holed out?

Since nearly all pros walk to the edge of the green after they have finished, and then head off to the next tee from there, they are not going back to repair spike marks after the last player's putt drops.  So, either they are not repairing spike marks or they are doing it before everyone has finished play.

You can do it when you're done. A pro will sometimes miss a putt and tamp down a spike mark, even if is fellow competitor still has a tap-in or something.

They can't be penalized for what you do, and you're done with the hole. You can even repair it if it was in your line (causing you to miss a putt perhaps), but isn't in the line of your tap-in: second paragraph below.

c . Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage

The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player’s ball lies on the putting green . If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of the repair, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of repairing an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball. Otherwise, Rule 18 applies.

Any other damage to the putting green must not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole.

[Rulesman]

Rule 16

Touching Line of Putt

The line of putt must not be touched except:

(vi) in repairing old hole plugs or ball marks on the putting green – Rule 16-1c ; and

Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage

The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player’s ball lies on the putting green .

Any other damage to the putting green must not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole.

Therefore, you may tap down spike marks at any time providing you take note of the above.

[Beachcomber]

Last season when Bryce Molder beat Briny Baird in that marathon playoff - I remember one of them tapping down spike marks.  Look at that 18th green though in the video.  The green looks like it was nothing but spike marks around the hole.

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Actually back in the day of much slower greens, spike marks weren't as much of an obstacle as they are now with such pristine, pool table smooth turf.  It's one of those things that needs to be revisited, but until they do, it's still not allowed.  The greens on my home course are very firm.  Soft spikes do not leave a significant impression, while metal ones can raise a little tuft that can affect a putt.  Thankfully my course banned metal spikes many, many years ago.

I was thinking of more along the lines of higher cut grass which if pressed down..might give you a nice "funnel" to the hole.  I could see someone picking a line and using their putter to tamp down a path to the hole.  These days, it wouldn't matter much because the grass is cut so short.

I don't think any soft spike would make a big enough depression for it to effect a putt much at all, but metal spikes definitely do.

[joekelly]

On the green, could i not pull from my bag a small broom, and brush the entire line of my upcoming putt. all legally?

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by joekelly

On the green, could i not pull from my bag a small broom, and brush the entire line of my upcoming putt. all legally?

No. Did you not read my post above?

Touching Line of Putt

The line of putt must not be touched except:

(vi) in repairing old hole plugs or ball marks on the putting green – Rule 16-1c ;

In addition:

13-2 Improving Lie, Area Of Intended Stance Or Swing, Or Line Of Play

A player must not improve or allow to be improved:

• the position or lie of his ball,

• the area of his intended stance or swing,

• his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole , or

• the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,

by any of the following actions:

• pressing a club on the ground,

• moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds ),

• creating or eliminating irregularities of surface ,

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

No. Did you not read my post above?

Touching Line of Putt

The line of putt must not be touched except:

(vi) in repairing old hole plugs or ball marks on the putting green – Rule16-1c;

You left out a lot. He could claim he's doing (i):

The line of putt must not be touched except:

(i) the player may remove loose impediments , provided he does not press anything down;

(ii) the player may place the club in front of the ball when addressing it, provided he does not press anything down;

(iii) in measuring – Rule 18-6 ;

(iv) in lifting or replacing the ball – Rule 16-1b ;

(v) in pressing down a ball-marker;

(vi) in repairing old hole plugs or ball marks on the putting green – Rule 16-1c ; and

(vii) in removing movable obstructions – Rule 24-1 .

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Rule 16

Touching Line of Putt

The line of putt must not be touched except:

(vi) in repairing old hole plugs or ball marks on the putting green – Rule16-1c; and

Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage

The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player’s ball lies on theputting green.

Any other damage to the putting green must not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole.

Therefore, you may tap down spike marks at any time providing you take note of the above.

I bow to your wisdom, and cannot find anything in rules or decisions that require waiting until all have holed out before anyone repairs a spike mark.  However I did notice this decision:

13-2/36

Competitor Sanctions Repair of Spike Damage on His Line of Putt by Fellow-Competitor

Q. If a fellow-competitor purposely improves the competitor's line of putt by repairing spike damage, the fellow-competitor is penalized under Rule 1-2 . If the fellow-competitor's action is sanctioned, tacitly or otherwise, by the competitor, is the competitor also subject to penalty?

A. Yes, under Rule 13-2 , for allowing his line of play to be improved.

I would understand that to mean that Player A has finished play, bends down to repair spike marks that were on his line, and means to be helpful by repairing a few more on the line of Player B's putt.  Player B murmurs 'Thank you' or nods appreciatively and then putts.  Both are then penalized.

[joekelly]

Yes, Rulesman, i am  entitled to remove all loose soil and sand from my line of putt, on the green.  How i remove those small items is the second concern.  My current 'Rules of Golf' (R&A; 2012) does not include the word 'brush' according to my reading, but in editions past i believe i did read that on the green a player could 'brush away the sand'.  If someone has an older copy of the Rules, that might clear my mind. But still, i can clean away the loose soil/sand and who is to say the entire path of my putt does not have such. I surely can use my hand as a whisk to every so slightly modify the line of putt.  Don't you agree? You are welcome to view the notions of Barry Rhodes, below, on this subject.

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2011/06/line-of-putt.html

[camper6]

Originally Posted by Alistair

I know competition committees invent their own rules, but of course the actual Rules of Golf forbids waiving a rule of golf:

33-1. Conditions; Waiving Rule

The Committee must establish the conditions under which a competition is to be played.

The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf.

Yes I know.  I was opposed to it and voiced my opinion.

It wasn't spelled out in the rules pages.  It was announced at the dinner prior to the tournament.

It was never brought back.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Alistair

I bow to your wisdom, but I've seen players on TV tap down at 3 or 4 places on a distance of about 10 feet between their ball and the hole.  None of those places were where their ball landed on the green, so either the group which went through earlier never repaired any ball marks or they are tapping down something else.

One is allowed to repair any ball mark on the green, regardless who made it and when.

I have this distinct feeling that the RB's are wise enough not to let spike marks or any other 'illegal' irregularities to be tamped down. The Rules in this respect are perfectly good as they are.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

I have this distinct feeling that the RB's are wise enough not to let spike marks or any other 'illegal' irregularities to be tamped down. The Rules in this respect are perfectly good as they are.

I disagree. It's not like someone can take the break out of a putt by tamping down the slope between the ball and the hole. I think irregularities should be allowed to be fixed. All of them.

As I said earlier, it's the one Rule of Golf which I would change if I could (I think there's only one).

[zeg]

Originally Posted by joekelly

Yes, Rulesman, i am  entitled to remove all loose soil and sand from my line of putt, on the green.  How i remove those small items is the second concern.  My current 'Rules of Golf' (R&A; 2012) does not include the word 'brush' according to my reading, but in editions past i believe i did read that on the green a player could 'brush away the sand'.  If someone has an older copy of the Rules, that might clear my mind. But still, i can clean away the loose soil/sand and who is to say the entire path of my putt does not have such. I surely can use my hand as a whisk to every so slightly modify the line of putt.  Don't you agree? You are welcome to view the notions of Barry Rhodes, below, on this subject.

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2011/06/line-of-putt.html

Be careful with your brushwork, Joe, because you aren't allowed to press anything down.

You can't just declare that you're brushing away non-existent loose sand or soil and then brush away to your heart's content. Brushing, particularly with your fingers, is strongly recommended against because you might be mistaken for testing the surface. If you make a habit of this, expect to be penalized.

[joekelly]

Not to worry Rulesman and  thanks for the heads-up. Much of this discussion is only about the rules, how to interpret, evade, avoid, etc.  Not totally unlike the IRS 1040 program.  No one wants to cheat, but everyone wants a 'break'.  Frankly, i do very little of the line brushing and have only used fingertips. It would be humorous and curious to see someone on TV pull out a mini-vacuum and 'massage' the line either blowing away or sucking up  the sand and loose soil.  One could never say then that he was 'touching the line'.

[camper6]

Summing up panel.

Do the pros tamp down spike marks in the line of putt?

That's how this topic started out.   I haven't seen a definite yes or no yet.