Quick ball flight law question

[Dr. Slice]

I just have a little question that i need to have cleared up.

When trying to hit a push draw, they said the club face should be 3 degrees open and the club path is about 6 degrees open. And the opposite with a pull fade.

My question is, is the club supposed to be 3 degrees open at set-up? Or at impact?

If its 3 degrees open at impact, then you would actually want the club face closed 3 degrees at set-up to go with the 6 degree open swing path. Is this correct?

because for me when my club face is open at set-up and i got for the slightly more open club path (6 degrees) my club face is now about 9 degrees open.

I guess I'm just confused about how that was supposed to work. Thanks!

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Dr. Slice

I just have a little question that i need to have cleared up.

When trying to hit a push draw, they said the club face should be 3 degrees open and the club path is about 6 degrees open. And the opposite with a pull fade.

My question is, is the club supposed to be 3 degrees open at set-up? Or at impact?

If its 3 degrees open at impact, then you would actually want the club face closed 3 degrees at set-up to go with the 6 degree open swing path. Is this correct?

because for me when my club face is open at set-up and i got for the slightly more open club path (6 degrees) my club face is now about 9 degrees open.

I guess I'm just confused about how that was supposed to work. Thanks!

Closing the face at set-up would be incorrect to hitting a push draw.  I think the use of open or closed is confusing you.  Impact is a collision, the face angle determines start line and the ball curves away from the path.

At impact to hit a push draw the face will be aimed RIGHT of the target.  The path will be further right of where the face is aiming.  So using the numbers you provided

Push Draw:

Face: 3 degrees right target

Path: 6 degrees right of the target

So the face is closed to the path but open to the target.  You don't describe the path as being open or closed.  Path can be described as right or left, out-to-in and in-to-out, outward and inward.

They actual numbers don't have to be 3 and 6, this is just an example.

And review this article http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

[Dr. Slice]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Closing the face at set-up would be incorrect to hitting a push draw.  I think the use of open or closed is confusing you.  Impact is a collision, the face angle determines start line and the ball curves away from the path.

At impact to hit a push draw the face will be aimed RIGHT of the target.  The path will be further right of where the face is aiming.  So using the numbers you provided

Push Draw:

Face: 3 degrees right target

Path: 6 degrees right of the target

So the face is closed to the path but open to the target.  You don't describe the path as being open or closed.  Path can be described as right or left, out-to-in and in-to-out, outward and inward.

They actual numbers don't have to be 3 and 6, this is just an example.

And review this article http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

Okay, i get all of that and the in-to-out is what i meant by open club path.

I don't know if its just me, but if my club face is open at set-up and i have an in-to-out swing path, my club face becomes that much more open because of the swing path already going more out.

Does this make any sense?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Dr. Slice

Okay, i get all of that and the in-to-out is what i meant by open club path.

I don't know if its just me, but if my club face is open at set-up and i have an in-to-out swing path, my club face becomes that much more open because of the swing path already going more out.

Does this make any sense?

No, having an outward path doesn't rotate the face more to the right.  If anything the face will close faster for guys that try to swing out to the right.  Some good players that swing too far out can struggle with big pushes, but the face is aimed to the right too much because of a compensation they are making.

To properly create an outward path just have the weight forward, the handle forward (flat left wrist) and raising at impact.  That's really all you need to get the "out" to curve it (assuming you're not aiming your body to the left at address) .  No need to actually "swing" out, that can create some problems.

Good video for you to check out

[Ernest Jones]

The last guy before MVMAC sure looked like he hit a fade? Was that to demonstrate the difference or should I be riding the short bus?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

The last guy before MVMAC sure looked like he hit a fade? Was that to demonstrate the difference or should I be riding the short bus?

Every shot I saw Webb Simpson hit was a draw That tends to be hit stock shot.

[Dr. Slice]

Originally Posted by mvmac

No, having an outward path doesn't rotate the face more to the right.  If anything the face will close faster for guys that try to swing out to the right.  Some good players that swing too far out can struggle with big pushes, but the face is aimed to the right too much because of a compensation they are making.

To properly create an outward path just have the weight forward, the handle forward (flat left wrist) and raising at impact.  That's really all you need to get the "out" to curve it (assuming you're not aiming your body to the left at address) .  No need to actually "swing" out, that can create some problems.

Good video for you to check out

Okay, so you really don't actually try to swing in-to-out? Its handle forward (flat left wrist), raising the handle (like the video) and weight forward at impact or both impact and set-up.

This makes a lot more sense because when i have practiced a push draw i kept on pushing it way right and it would have a fade to it, no matter how far in-to-out my club path was. Now i know i was coming way too much inside.

This is just tough for me because i have always been taught/told about an in-to-out swing but nothing about raising the handle and stuff

Thanks a lot for your help!

[Jimdangles]

I think everybody has different ways to hit a draw but essentially all doing the same thing. Me swinging to right field may cause me to flatten my wrist and all that without me knowing (I dont know whats going on there)

As to your question I think that depends on how much you turn your hands over on your swing. The 3 degrees open face is for impact. If you massively turn your hands over during your swing then you may want it 10 degrees open. If you never turn your hands over then close that puppy. The point is just 3 degrees open at impact with a 6 degree in to out swing.

Personally I close the face a few degrees because I tend to not get my hands over.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Dr. Slice

Okay, so you really don't actually try to swing in-to-out? Its handle forward (flat left wrist), raising the handle (like the video) and weight forward at impact or both impact and set-up.

This makes a lot more sense because when i have practiced a push draw i kept on pushing it way right and it would have a fade to it, no matter how far in-to-out my club path was. Now i know i was coming way too much inside.

This is just tough for me because i have always been taught/told about an in-to-out swing but nothing about raising the handle and stuff

Thanks a lot for your help!

There has been a lot of draw/fix my slice thread on here lately, I think I'm going to do a Swing Thoughts post where I'll include this video and get more into the actual facts.  Hank Haney just tweeted yesterday that you need firm grip pressure for fades and loose pressure for draws.  It's just awful information and has nothing to do with the alignments you need to hit a draw or fade. Clearly shows he's operating under the pretense that a draw has more "release" and a fade is a shot that's "held off".  If I wanted to hit the biggest slice I would roll my forearms the fastest and the earliest.

[Dr. Slice]

Originally Posted by mvmac

There has been a lot of draw/fix my slice thread on here lately, I think I'm going to do a Swing Thoughts post where I'll include this video and get more into the actual facts.  Hank Haney just tweeted yesterday that you need firm grip pressure for fades and loose pressure for draws.  It's just awful information and has nothing to do with the alignments you need to hit a draw or fade. Clearly shows he's operating under the pretense that a draw has more "release" and a fade is a shot that's "held off".  If I wanted to hit the biggest slice I would roll my forearms the fastest and the earliest.

I think that would help a lot of people out, because about 90% of the info out there about working the ball seems to be inaccurate

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by mvmac

There has been a lot of draw/fix my slice thread on here lately, I think I'm going to do a Swing Thoughts post where I'll include this video and get more into the actual facts.  Hank Haney just tweeted yesterday that you need firm grip pressure for fades and loose pressure for draws.  It's just awful information and has nothing to do with the alignments you need to hit a draw or fade. Clearly shows he's operating under the pretense that a draw has more "release" and a fade is a shot that's "held off".  If I wanted to hit the biggest slice I would roll my forearms the fastest and the earliest.

Sorry, why is it not ok to hold off for a fade and release for a draw? Thats how I play the shots.

Sure a fade is played with a closed face, but it is still open to the path which comes from a hold off release for me (or one of the ways I may play a fade, depending on what type of fade I want to play.

Vice versa with draw. I swing more from the inside and feel the clubhead rotate over a little more (if I want a high draw). At impact, the clubface is open to the target, but I need to feel the release to get the clubface closed to the path.

Whilst I would never give information like Haney did, its not awful advice per-se. but it is only an influence. I can rotate the clubhead with a tight grip and hold off with a relaxed grip, so its not really the best advice, I agree. But his reasoning behind it is not all that bad.

[Derek Ong]

How about this:

Play ball a little back in your stance. Should be drawing the ball if the swing is good. Keep opening your club face at setup (actual face and not rotating grip) until you start fading or straight push. That's the max of how much you need to open your club face at setup. Experiment within this range of face opening to get a consistent push draw.

OR

The easiest way is to aim right of target and just hit a normal draw .

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Sorry, why is it not ok to hold off for a fade and release for a draw? Thats how I play the shots.

Sure a fade is played with a closed face, but it is still open to the path which comes from a hold off release for me (or one of the ways I may play a fade, depending on what type of fade I want to play.

Vice versa with draw. I swing more from the inside and feel the clubhead rotate over a little more (if I want a high draw). At impact, the clubface is open to the target, but I need to feel the release to get the clubface closed to the path.

Whilst I would never give information like Haney did, its not awful advice per-se. but it is only an influence. I can rotate the clubhead with a tight grip and hold off with a relaxed grip, so its not really the best advice, I agree. But his reasoning behind it is not all that bad.

That's fine if you're feeling that but releasing or holding off has nothing to do with imparting a certain type of curve.  What you're really feeling is the difference in the overtaking rates between swinging out and swinging left.  But to hit a fade there's no need to swing left, just aim the body more to left, like Freddy.

Fred Couples fades it all day, not holding off anything in these two swings

And Zach Johnson draws every ball while "holding it off"

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by mvmac

That's fine if you're feeling that but releasing or holding off has nothing to do with imparting a certain type of curve.  What you're really feeling is the difference in the overtaking rates between swinging out and swinging left.  But to hit a fade there's no need to swing left, just aim the body more to left, like Freddy.

Fred Couples fades it all day, not holding off anything in these two swings

And Zach Johnson draws every ball while "holding it off"

I know there is no need to swing left to hit a fade, but doing it allows me to hit the ball with a steeper angle of attack and hence less dynamic loft so I can get that 'power fade'. And yes, I know it is possible to hit a draw with a hold off finish - if your clubface is closed enough through a strong grip or other means like Zach Johnson then you can hold it off and still have it closed tot he path at impact. There are lots of ways to do it.

All I was saying was that saying to rotate the face though impact is not always bad advice. We are both in agreement that the path has to be to the right of the target to hit a draw. This can be done by aiming there or swinging there, or moving the bottom of the arc forwards - all with their own advantages and disadvanatges. Then the clubface has to be closed in relation to that path - again this can be done in many ways and rotating the club as a feeling is perfectly viable if it achieves the goal of getting the club more closed to the path (as can setting up with it closed). As with all, there area advantages and disadvantages to all methods. Some are theoretically more sound, some sit better with how a persons swing pattern is and some are more psychologically viable (easier to feel etc) and taking into account other variables such as loft and angle of attacks too.

but then if we view it this way, it can get endlessly complicated. It really comes down to some simple feels and an understanding of how that feel translates to reality.

I wouldn't say that holding off or releasing has nothing to do with it. Yes, we have to get the correct numbers, but getting these correct numbers are influenced by these methods. A released clubface is more closed to the path than a held off clubface, all other things being equal.

Bottom line is, there are players out there who release and hit fades, an players who hold off and hit fades. There are players who release and hit draws, and players who hold off and hit draws. You can find a pro to fit whatever theory you wish. YES the numbers at impact count, but it can be a different FEEL for different players - its not a simple case of saying that players shouldn't hold off to hit a fade or shouldn't release to hit a draw. I can guarantee you if i swing in to out and don't release, that ball is pushed, and vice versa. I have done many hours with a trackman to see how the stats are affected by my feels - and also how it relates with video and trackman stats.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

I wouldn't say that holding off or releasing has nothing to do with it. Yes, we have to get the correct numbers, but getting these correct numbers are influenced by these methods. A released clubface is more closed to the path than a held off clubface, all other things being equal.

I get you're saying all things being equal but if anything, keeping the handle forward and raising will produce a more outward path than a released club face.

I don't think Haney is thinking about it the way you are.  I think he feels releasing it while the ball is in contact with the face puts "draw spin" on the ball.  Like when Johnny Miller talks about turning it over at the last second to draw it or open it to fade it.

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by mvmac

I get you're saying all things being equal but if anything, keeping the handle forward and raising will produce a more outward path than a released club face.

I don't think Haney is thinking about it the way you are.  I think he feels releasing it while the ball is in contact with the face puts "draw spin" on the ball.  Like when Johnny Miller talks about turning it over at the last second to draw it or open it to fade it.

well yeah, i dont agree with the handle thing or the johnny miller thing. If anything - a clubface that is rotating rapidly closed will put fade spin on it as we see in gear effect, so hat is plain wrong. but the act of feeling the clubface rotate can help get it more closed to the path.

was just trying to get this clear cos I had a student get real ****ed up over watching one of those d-plane vids by the trackman meistro where he said that releasing the club was bad. We were working on his feeling of releasing the club, as he was leaving shots out to the right all the time by holding off with his in to out approach. I went online and questioned trackman meistro - he deleted the comment and didnt get back to me. obviously didnt want people to see that what he was saying may be mis-applied. Fair enough.

to be clear, I had explained to my client that we were releasing the clubface in order to get the clubface more closed to the path, but no so much that it over-curved and finished left (although he was to practice doing it too much and too little as to get a feeling of in between). Then he watches this vid that tells him releasing the club is bad and he must hold off for a draw - block city, population 1

[Adam Young]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89M1vt66FA

About 6 minutes and 10 seconds in he ****s my student up who we were working on a push draw (this is what his goal was), he tends to get a lot of forward lean in the shaft and digs a lot so we worked on a square stance push draw as it allowed him to shallow his divot a little also.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

he tends to get a lot of forward lean in the shaft and digs a lot so we worked on a square stance push draw as it allowed him to shallow his divot a little also.

That's why we talk about the handle raising to shallow out the AOA.  If the club doesn't get out of the ground, good chance you'll see push cuts.

I put this video together last week