Natural Movement sequence

[Adam Young]

Ok, this may seem a bit random. I have certain beliefs, which I am open to changing in light of evidence or views that make sense to me. Here goes

A lot of teachers talk about the sequence of body motion - i'm sure most of us know that it should start from the ground up. Over about the last 10 years, with the introduction of things like the K-Vest, we have started to analyse this in much more depth. Looking at rates of hip, shoulder, arm and club speeds, accelerations, decelerations etc.

Now, looking at the transition in the throwing of the stones by the monkey above (30 seconds in) - to my trained eye it is a beautiful kinematic sequence. All the correct parts move first in the transition, the specific body accelerations and decelerations are in perfect harmony. All of this was developed without any conscious effort - actually it happened as a resuult of about 10,000 hours of practice as the documentary states. As far as my research as found, k-vest have also not been in the jungles teaching these monkeys how to improve their sequence.

So ask yourself the question, why is it that you sequence is not like a pro's? Is it because you haven't learned it consciously (like most teachers will tell you), or could there be some other reason? What then, is the best way to develop a better sequence? Could it even be hurting you to try?

[Mikeod5785]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Ok, this may seem a bit random. I have certain beliefs, which I am open to changing in light of evidence or views that make sense to me. Here goes

A lot of teachers talk about the sequence of body motion - i'm sure most of us know that it should start from the ground up. Over about the last 10 years, with the introduction of things like the K-Vest, we have started to analyse this in much more depth. Looking at rates of hip, shoulder, arm and club speeds, accelerations, decelerations etc.

Now, looking at the transition in the throwing of the stones by the monkey above (30 seconds in) - to my trained eye it is a beautiful kinematic sequence. All the correct parts move first in the transition, the specific body accelerations and decelerations are in perfect harmony. All of this was developed without any conscious effort - actually it happened as a resuult of about 10,000 hours of practice as the documentary states. As far as my research as found, k-vest have also not been in the jungles teaching these monkeys how to improve their sequence.

So ask yourself the question, why is it that you sequence is not like a pro's? Is it because you haven't learned it consciously (like most teachers will tell you), or could there be some other reason? What then, is the best way to develop a better sequence? Could it even be hurting you to try?

slow it down and learn it piece by piece step by step, then take a camera to the driving range and record everyone there, and sit back and laugh at all of the HORRENDOUS swings people have that didn't do what you did.

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by Mikeod5785

slow it down and learn it piece by piece step by step, then take a camera to the driving range and record everyone there, and sit back and laugh at all of the HORRENDOUS swings people have that didn't do what you did.

I think you said it correctly in a different post. Hit 500 balls a day for a month, that's 15,000 balls. do this every day for 10 years and you've done your 10,000 hour rule - every pro out there has done this (or more in golf).

Now, do you learn the kinematic sequence bit by bit, or do you let it develop as a result of the above, just like the monkey, with no conscious awareness. Is it better to have a consciously learned kinematic sequence, or a naturally developed one?

[rustyredcab]

Perhaps the issue is that the easiest way to get a little ball into a hole that is 400 yards away is NOT with a club. If you could see monkeys trying to get the ball in the hole, they'd pick it up, run to the hole, and drop it in.

Golf is hard, and unnatural, on purpose.

That said, there are plenty of good players with homemade swings. My swing model, Moe Norman, developed an easier way to hit a ball far and straight without lessons, video, or help. But now I try to learn it with lessons, video, and help.

[Mikeod5785]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

I think you said it correctly in a different post. Hit 500 balls a day for a month, that's 15,000 balls. do this every day for 10 years and you've done your 10,000 hour rule - every pro out there has done this (or more in golf).

Now, do you learn the kinematic sequence bit by bit, or do you let it develop as a result of the above, just like the monkey, with no conscious awareness. Is it better to have a consciously learned kinematic sequence, or a naturally developed one?

Anyone who has an arm can throw a baseball right? but only a select few will every throw it correctly and hit a 95 mile per hour fastball without destroying their body. An alert awareness to every move you make will burn the motions into your brain. if you step to the ball, and go through the following thoughts step by step....ball position....stance width....lie angle....clubface square....left grip..right grip.....focus BANG.....at first it should take you at least 5-7 seconds to get settled in....waggle the club and check for gaps in your grip. If you do that 500 times in one day.....every time go through that thought process.....like a checklist....you will be on the right track so fast you won't believe it. Taught my 14 year old son this method of thinking and he went from chopping wood with the 5 iron to driving the 2 iron shot 165-175 in three days. Your setup to the ball will become second nature.

If you work this method at 50% power for a day, watch how much time you have to checklist your other movements, the takeaway, laying off the club at the start of the downswing....leading with that left knee then the hips.....rotate, and keep the right elbow tucked and follow through.....full follow through always every shot. In no time flat your swing mechanics from setup to delivery will improve.

These are the steps I follow everyday.....through repetition....and awareness of what steps you are taking.....you will improve Immediately. And the second day it will take you 3 seconds to setup because the thoughts zing through your head now, its really simple. There is no secret.....there is only hard work and dedication

P.S. on the backswing keep that left heel planted....roll the ankle inward..trust me

[BWChuck]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Now, do you learn the kinematic sequence bit by bit, or do you let it develop as a result of the above, just like the monkey, with no conscious awareness. Is it better to have a consciously learned kinematic sequence, or a naturally developed one?

If you had a desire to learn, 10,000 hours of practice will produce good results regardless of method IMO.

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Golf is hard, and unnatural, on purpose.

That said, there are plenty of good players with homemade swings. My swing model, Moe Norman, developed an easier way to hit a ball far and straight without lessons, video, or help. But now I try to learn it with lessons, video, and help.

Golf certainly is hard, and there are certain things that are unnatural and don't make instinctive sense - like hitting down on the ball. But i am talking more about developing a certain body sequence that the pro's have, with all the correct acceleration and decels and order or moving parts etc. Interesting that your idol took the route I am proposing

Originally Posted by Mikeod5785

Anyone who has an arm can throw a baseball right? but only a select few will every throw it correctly and hit a 95 mile per hour fastball without destroying their body. An alert awareness to every move you make will burn the motions into your brain. if you step to the ball, and go through the following thoughts step by step....ball position....stance width....lie angle....clubface square....left grip..right grip.....focus BANG.....at first it should take you at least 5-7 seconds to get settled in....waggle the club and check for gaps in your grip. If you do that 500 times in one day.....every time go through that thought process.....like a checklist....you will be on the right track so fast you won't believe it. Taught my 14 year old son this method of thinking and he went from chopping wood with the 5 iron to driving the 2 iron shot 165-175 in three days. Your setup to the ball will become second nature.

If you work this method at 50% power for a day, watch how much time you have to checklist your other movements, the takeaway, laying off the club at the start of the downswing....leading with that left knee then the hips.....rotate, and keep the right elbow tucked and follow through.....full follow through always every shot. In no time flat your swing mechanics from setup to delivery will improve.

These are the steps I follow everyday.....through repetition....and awareness of what steps you are taking.....you will improve Immediately. And the second day it will take you 3 seconds to setup because the thoughts zing through your head now, its really simple. There is no secret.....there is only hard work and dedication

P.S. on the backswing keep that left heel planted....roll the ankle inward..trust me

Yes, that is certainly a way to learn, but it's not the only way. Lots of great players did not learn that way. I certainly hope you don't teach your son to walk by giving him a list of commands of plantar flexion and weight distribution rates. What I am getting at is, you can learn the movement consciously (as you suggest) until it is unconscious. Or, you can have it developed through more instinctive means. I have seen and taught great players who have been both routes. One thing that strikes me is that, when the players have taken the conscious route, striving for only perfection, they run into deep trouble when havign a bad day and cant get themselves out of it. The players who have developed through more instinctive and task led ways have much more of an ability to get the ball around the course when their swing is off.

It seems that when players have been taught the way you are describing, they get stuck in the left side of the brain - analytical which has been proven to be detrimental to performance of a skill sport. The more instinctively developed players are much more right brained, and therefore can solve the problems in a more creative manner which is more conducive to performance, especially at a high level.

Also, the detriment to learning the way you describe is that, once a player takes that analytical route, it is almost impossible to go back. could you imagine 'not thinking' about your swing now??

read a little about Mancil davis here http://www.internationalspeakers.com/speaker/586/mancil_davis he has over 50 hole in ones and 25 albatrosses (double eagles). He is not thinking of his technique whilst taking a shot - hes thinking of holing it like a 50 ft putt. This is consistent with most good players when they are playing well, their thoughts are external, not internal like you are suggesting.

Originally Posted by BWChuck

If you had a desire to learn, 10,000 hours of practice will produce good results regardless of method IMO.

Yes, but 10,000 hours of conscious learning versus subconscious learning produces wildly different results both physically and psychologically.

[Mikeod5785]

I think your missing the whole point of what I meant.. That technique is simply to put your mind in the comfortable zone before you swing.....Trust me I don't swing like a robot but this will help you out with certain things like balance for one...clubhead speed....head movement....weight shifting....swinging through and down the target line more consistently....timing with the hip rotation etc...If you just go to the tee without any instruction whatsoever, and have never hit a golf ball.....and swing 10,000 times, I guarantee your clubhead speed will never break 90 mph. You will be casting that clubhead like a madman...you're weight will be on the outside of your right heel during the backswing putting you off balance......

the point is not to hit like a robot, everyone's swing is different due to body design. Take the correct steps and advice, then adapt it to what you're capable of doing. How many average joe's can rotate thier hips the full 120 degrees like Arnold Palmer did during his drive? not many so don't bother trying, adapt to what you can do

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Mikeod5785

I think your missing the whole point of what I meant.. That technique is simply to put your mind in the comfortable zone before you swing.....Trust me I don't swing like a robot but this will help you out with certain things like balance for one...clubhead speed....head movement....weight shifting....swinging through and down the target line more consistently....timing with the hip rotation etc...If you just go to the tee without any instruction whatsoever, and have never hit a golf ball.....and swing 10,000 times, I guarantee your clubhead speed will never break 90 mph. You will be casting that clubhead like a madman...you're weight will be on the outside of your right heel during the backswing putting you off balance......

the point is not to hit like a robot, everyone's swing is different due to body design. Take the correct steps and advice, then adapt it to what you're capable of doing. How many average joe's can rotate thier hips the full 120 degrees like Arnold Palmer did during his drive? not many so don't bother trying, adapt to what you can do

Still waiting on that swing video.  Or should we just refer to Patrick's?

[Mikeod5785]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

Still waiting on that swing video.  Or should we just refer to Patrick's?

Here's a video I took yesterday, while I was watching my weight shift and right foot, hitting with and Arnold Palmer 3 iron blade....good to have a camera that records at 60 fps to slow it down and watch your inconsistency in the swing

[iacas]

Mike, these are not the swings of a 1 handicapper:

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Mikeod5785

Here's a video I took yesterday, while I was watching my weight shift and right foot, hitting with and Arnold Palmer 3 iron blade....good to have a camera that records at 60 fps to slow it down and watch your inconsistency in the swing

Nice.  Is Uncle Rico coming over for dinner and to throw the pigskin around a little bit?  Also, is that a cell phone clipped to your belt in the video?

[Mikeod5785]

I don't know my handicap didn't know what to put down for that lol, anyway, this is my third day swinging a golf club in over ten years. My left elbow is impossible to straighten out due to a floating chip inside from an old injury, lock the elbow= immediate pain. By the way, thanks for catching that 5 wood top....I felt it. First time ever hitting the Burner. You will see improvement by the end of the day today. And you will see Lag in the swing by the end of today as well. I see the left wrist. Now I will go hit 500 balls and fix that crap. My goal is immediate improvement.

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by iacas

Mike, these are not the swings of a 1 handicapper:

Agreed. Sorry mike, it's an ok swing, but certainly not a 1 handicap. Unless youa re playing on a course of about 5,000 yards perhaps, but even then. But the American handicap system is a lot easier than our British system so, I could be wrong.

I do agree with what you said about adapting to what you are capable of doing, very sensible advice. Although your previous sentences were very untrue. I have seen many south american players who have received no formal instruction who have great postures, grips and more importantly BALL CONTROL. They don't understand d-plane or ball flight laws, have no clue of where their arms or left hip is or what part of their body  is moving first, yet through practice alone they have developed great swings and clubhead speeds well in excess of 100MPH (a lot closer to 110 - and these are kids). I ahve also seen people who know more about d-plane and the golfing machine than most good instructors, yet cant hit the ball out of their own shadow. Remeinds me of the video iacas posted about golf in laymans terms

[Mikeod5785]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Agreed. Sorry mike, it's an ok swing, but certainly not a 1 handicap. Unless youa re playing on a course of about 5,000 yards perhaps, but even then. But the American handicap system is a lot easier than our British system so, I could be wrong.

I do agree with what you said about adapting to what you are capable of doing, very sensible advice. Although your previous sentences were very untrue. I have seen many south american players who have received no formal instruction who have great postures, grips and more importantly BALL CONTROL. They don't understand d-plane or ball flight laws, have no clue of where their arms or left hip is or what part of their body  is moving first, yet through practice alone they have developed great swings and clubhead speeds well in excess of 100MPH (a lot closer to 110 - and these are kids). I ahve also seen people who know more about d-plane and the golfing machine than most good instructors, yet cant hit the ball out of their own shadow. Remeinds me of the video iacas posted about golf in laymans terms

I stand corrected, need to get them kids into the long drive competitions :)

[Mikeod5785]

Actually they are the swings of  scratch golfer how bout that lmfao, oh by the way....before coming here......learning on my own, tweaking this and that slowly,,,, I went from hitting the ball all over the place to hitting it dead straight, after coming here and reading all the posts from so called instructors.....you fckin people have to be out of your mind. You overcomplicate the golf swing so much its absolutely ridiculous, instructors giving people false hope on thier swings, lol what a bunch of fckin jokers....people, there's not one guy on this site whos gonna show you how to hit the ball better than Ben hogan, or moe norman, or arnold palmer, or jack nicklaus, or lee trevino, or sam snead, and there's so much free information out there, stop wasting your fckin time taking tips from these retard leeches, and go learn on your own, INVENT YOUR OWN SWING  fckin scammers lol FCK OFF SEE YA

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by Mikeod5785

Actually they are the swings of  scratch golfer how bout that lmfao, oh by the way....before coming here......learning on my own, tweaking this and that slowly,,,, I went from hitting the ball all over the place to hitting it dead straight, after coming here and reading all the posts from so called instructors.....you fckin people have to be out of your mind. You overcomplicate the golf swing so much its absolutely ridiculous, people, there's not one guy on this site whos gonna show you how to hit the ball better than Ben hogan, or moe norman, or arnold palmer, or jack nicklaus, or lee trevino, or sam snead,  and go learn on your own, INVENT YOUR OWN SWING

My sentiments exactly. Yes, we do tend to overcomplicate things. But golf is as simple as strike the middle of the face, strike the ground in the right place and then control the clubface angle.

I agree with what you say about inventing your own swing, and that no one can  teach you how to hit it like hogan, snead, Norman or those guys.

But the above things are vital components of a good golfer - how you do them is up to you, as all the greats have show throughout the years.

But seriously, it's only discussion. You could learn a lot from the instructors here as we all have differing opinions, but there is a commonality amongst all of them. Remember, we are the ones that are on the firing line when we are teaching others, we have made the mistakes and had the successes.... and more importantly, we have got there ourselves, so we know what we are talking about.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Mikeod5785

Actually they are the swings of  scratch golfer how bout that lmfao, oh by the way....before coming here......learning on my own, tweaking this and that slowly,,,, I went from hitting the ball all over the place to hitting it dead straight, after coming here and reading all the posts from so called instructors.....you fckin people have to be out of your mind. You overcomplicate the golf swing so much its absolutely ridiculous, instructors giving people false hope on thier swings, lol what a bunch of fckin jokers....people, there's not one guy on this site whos gonna show you how to hit the ball better than Ben hogan, or moe norman, or arnold palmer, or jack nicklaus, or lee trevino, or sam snead, and there's so much free information out there, stop wasting your fckin time taking tips from these retard leeches, and go learn on your own, INVENT YOUR OWN SWING  fckin scammers lol FCK OFF SEE YA

I've never seen a scratch golfer add 10 degrees of loft to a clubface at impact.  You must play really short coures with no wind.