How should this be played??

[divot dave]

I spent a lot of time in or near the sand over the weekend and happened upon this situation in a fairway bunker (see below). My question is, does a lie like this play as a bunker shot (where the rules stipulate you cannot ground the club) or a normal shot?

for what its worth, I played it as a bunker shot to be on the safe side...

[Reg5000]

From the looks of it you are still in the edge of the bunker therefore you CANNOT ground you club so it seems as though you did the correct thing.  Also I would almost say that on your downswing you are going to make contact with the sand first which would also constitute it as being played from the bunker.

[cooke119]

I agree, you are in a bunker.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by divot dave

I spent a lot of time in or near the sand over the weekend and happened upon this situation in a fairway bunker (see below). My question is, does a lie like this play as a bunker shot (where the rules stipulate you cannot ground the club) or a normal shot?

for what its worth, I played it as a bunker shot to be on the safe side...

I might need a wider angle to say if that's grass spreading into the bunker or if it's sand being spread outside the bunker from erosion and the most likely escape direction. If it was clearly in the bunker then the motorized sand pro / raking buggy thing would likely have not missed it or the grounds crew might have finished it by hand. It doesn't look raked even though the bunker looks freshly raked. But I guess with the information at hand, I'd call it a bunker and play it as one.

[divot dave]

Originally Posted by divot dave

I spent a lot of time in or near the sand over the weekend and happened upon this situation in a fairway bunker (see below). My question is, does a lie like this play as a bunker shot (where the rules stipulate you cannot ground the club) or a normal shot?

for what its worth, I played it as a bunker shot to be on the safe side...

for what its worth: the direction of the hole is to the right of the ball... When I swung, I definitely made contact with sand but I probably hit grass first.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I might need a wider angle to say if that's grass spreading into the bunker or if it's sand being spread outside the bunker from erosion and the most likely escape direction. If it was clearly in the bunker then the motorized sand pro / raking buggy thing would likely have not missed it or the grounds crew might have finished it by hand. It doesn't look raked even though the bunker looks freshly raked. But I guess with the information at hand, I'd call it a bunker and play it as one.

interesting observation. the "lip" of the bunker is actually about 8 inches "south" of the ball... so I guess it depends on what the official definition of a bunker is, and if it includes the fringes where sand and grass have no choice but to blend.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by divot dave

interesting observation. the "lip" of the bunker is actually about 8 inches "south" of the ball... so I guess it depends on what the official definition of a bunker is, and if it includes the fringes where sand and grass have no choice but to blend.

Regardless of what you think exactly about the pic provided by the OP, does anyone know the official ruling here if the ball is clearly a couple inches towards the "grass" from the clear lip of the bunker, but is also clearly lying only on sand that's drifted over the lip of the bunker?  Say like the pic OP provided, but what looks like it might be the lip is more exaggerated and is obviously what was built as the lip of the bunker, and his ball is 1/2" to 1" further towards the lip, so it's clearly resting on spilled over sand.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by mdl

Regardless of what you think exactly about the pic provided by the OP, does anyone know the official ruling here if the ball is clearly a couple inches towards the "grass" from the clear lip of the bunker, but is also clearly lying only on sand that's drifted over the lip of the bunker?  Say like the pic OP provided, but what looks like it might be the lip is more exaggerated and is obviously what was built as the lip of the bunker, and his ball is 1/2" to 1" further towards the lip, so it's clearly resting on spilled over sand.

The definition of a bunker states that grass covered ground bordering or within the bunker is NOT part of the bunker.  The fact that some sand has spilled onto that grass covered ground does not change the fact that it is grass covered ground and therefore not part of the bunker.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdl

Regardless of what you think exactly about the pic provided by the OP, does anyone know the official ruling here if the ball is clearly a couple inches towards the "grass" from the clear lip of the bunker, but is also clearly lying only on sand that's drifted over the lip of the bunker?  Say like the pic OP provided, but what looks like it might be the lip is more exaggerated and is obviously what was built as the lip of the bunker, and his ball is 1/2" to 1" further towards the lip, so it's clearly resting on spilled over sand.

The definition of a bunker states that grass covered ground bordering or within the bunker is NOT part of the bunker.  The fact that some sand has spilled onto that grass covered ground does not change the fact that it is grass covered ground and therefore not part of the bunker.

Is it?

[David in FL]

Is it?

Sure, As long as it is, in fact, grass covered ground.....not just a portion of poorly maintained bunker that happens to have grass growing in it. 2 different things. Realize that I'm only responding to mdl's very specific question. Not commenting on the OP. As far as the OP, I'd consider that bunker from what we can see.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Is it?

Sure, As long as it is, in fact, grass covered ground.....not just a portion of poorly maintained bunker that happens to have grass growing in it. 2 different things. Realize that I'm only responding to mdl's very specific question. Not commenting on the OP. As far as the OP, I'd consider that bunker from what we can see.

Oh, sorry, I thought you were responding to both questions via that post.

[mdl]

Okay, but what if the spillover of sand is like in the OP's pic, where it's clearly been allowed to drift long enough that it's killed the grass beyond what we're calling, in this hypothetical extension, the definite intended lip of the bunker.  So our ball is 100% out of what was originally designed to be the bunker, but 100% sitting on sand which is sitting on dirt, with no grass left at all in that spot.  Still not part of the bunker cause it wasn't originally intended that way?

[David in FL]

Okay, but what if the spillover of sand is like in the OP's pic, where it's clearly been allowed to drift long enough that it's killed the grass beyond what we're calling, in this hypothetical extension, the definite intended lip of the bunker.  So our ball is 100% out of what was originally designed to be the bunker, but 100% sitting on sand which is sitting on dirt, with no grass left at all in that spot.  Still not part of the bunker cause it wasn't originally intended that way?

The definition doesn't talk about intent. It simply defines. If there is absolutely no grass covered ground, I would consider it to be part of the bunker. I would certainly NOT risk a penalty by playing it any other way in either case. When all else fails, err on the side of the restrictive play...