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NBC Sports: Passing the "Torch" to Rory McIlroy?

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Originally Posted by birdyfest

without looking up a bunch of stats, i can almost say for certain tiger isn't as good as he used to be in putting, distance control and proximity to hole on approach.  put those things together and he's playing with his B game.  the other thing that only insiders know is how much is tiger actually practicing?  life happens, kids happen, priorities change.


Tiger is legendary for his work ethic, time he puts in the gym and on the range. He's a monster in that way. As said above he's not making birdies on par 5's like he used to do. He destroyed these in his prime. My guess is he is not making clutch putts like in the past and no hitting as many par 5 greens in 2 shots.

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Thread Starter, without going into quite as much detail as you I'd like to address a couple of issues you raised.  Your contention that all those who are crowning Rory as the best golfer in the world are suffering either from the side effects of drug abuse or hatred of Tiger is bizarre.  I'm one of those who believes that Rory is the best golfer in the world at this moment in time, an opinion supported by every available stat - world rankings, money lists, 2012 win record, and anything else you might care to mention - and I can assure you that I am neither a drug abuser or Tiger hater.  I do lack objectivity somewhat  because he's Irish - well sort of - and I've watched him play since his early teens, but that lack of objectivity is offset by the existence of very hard facts, as above.

Tiger, in my opinion, is the greatest golfer ever, greater even than Jack, and is close to returning to his best, but he is not currently at Rory's level, again a view supported by facts.  He might well get back to his previous best, but, given his age and injury record, that is by no means inevitable.  In fact if he wasn't Tiger Woods its unlikely that we'd even consider the possibility that a golfer of his age and injury record could hope to refind his previous level of form.   If he is to become the world's no. 1 he will have to get past McIlroy, and given his record over the last two years its highly unlikely that Rory will be standing still.  In fact, the way he recovered from the Masters debacle, the way he has addressed issues in his game like putting, the way he addressed his career path by getting rid of Chandler, all suggest that he is a focussed and decisive, indeed ruthless, guy who has no intention of sitting back and congratulating himself.  None of this means that he will definitely become a true great of the game, but his record to date, two majors at 23 to match Jack and Tiger, and the manner of the two major wins, would suggest that he is a different phenomenon to others who have been given the title of "Next Great Thing" in the last 20 years,.  He has backed up his potential with real achievements, and this is what is so exciting about him, and, while some of the coverage has been over the top, it is by no means outrageous to consider the possibility that he could actually be the "Next Great Thing.

It should also be remembered that the hype that accompanies Rory now also played a part in the building of Tiger's image, and his subsequent impact on the game, when he joined the professionl ranks, and, like Rory, he gave substance to the hype by actually going out and winning tournaments.  You can't compare Rory with the likes of Sergio or even Phil, because the only people who had comparable records at his age were Jack and Tiger.  Therefore, the hype is not just understandable, but inevitable.

Hard facts?  Not currently at Rory's level?  Previous level of forum?  What - are you another Golf Comedian?  Are you joking?  Are you puling my leg?  The "Next Great Thing?"  Maybe - and that's where you really need to understand the game of golf.

Maybe you missed my other post, but Rory, has accomplished less than 50% of what Tiger, had accomplished at the same age.  Tiger, has twice the number of wins AND two majors at the same time.  Tiger, also did not merely win the Masters, he won the Masters with a margin of victory has had never been seen before.  He was Player of the Year (multiple years), held the Number #1 World Ranking and held Number #1 on the Money List - all at the same age Rory, is right now.

So, when you talk about "facts" - exactly what "facts" are you referring to?

Rory, is the Number #1 Player in the World for one reason and one reason only: Tiger, changed his swing yet again.  Only this time, his swing changes were made to protect and extend his playing career, by lessening some of the torque and pressure off the left side of his body.  In return, he's picked-up more yardage both off the tee and from the fairway with his irons.  The downside to these changes have been a NEW trajectory in his ball flight from the fairway into greens.

This is why Tiger, is experiencing so many puts outside of 24 feet and from angles that do not give him decent looks at birdie.  Thus, he has scored less because he's made fewer puts and as a direct results, has not won as many tournaments.  Go take a very close look at the tournaments Tiger, won this year and last year.  When he's won, what did you notice about his second shots into greens?

Answer:  There were plenty of them that were pin high and within 24 feet of the hole.

- He's won driving the ball into the Concession Stands.

- He's won driving the ball into the next fairway third cut of rough.

- He's won driving the ball into the trees, behind boulders, behind the Empire State Building, etc.

But, he simply does not win very much when he's hitting second shots on Par 4's either too far above or too far below the hole - outside of 24 feet.  He's never won a massive number of tournaments hitting second shots like that.

This new ball compression over time ratio/function that the new swing has given him, was the ONLY thing separating him from winning the U.S. Open at Olympic and wining this years FedEx Cup outright.  He had the U.S. Open won in a patented Come-From-Behind style when his trajectory was under control from the fairway.  He then began having trajectory problems and that is when his steady roll up the leader board fell apart and he began forcing shots in a race against the clock as the number of holes available for a comeback ran out.

This years FedEx Cup - same exact thing.  He starts out with blazing accuracy from the fairway BECAUSE his trajectory matched the pace of his swing.  Once the pace increased, the compression on the ball increased and you began seeing balls fly above the hole on misses into the green.  He then tried to make an on-the-course adjustment to reduce the pace, but that ended up in seeing more balls [b]fall too short of the hole underneath.  Thus, his puts were consistently outside of 24 feet.

You've got to understand how this game works for professionals.  These guys are so finely tuned for [b]their own shot patterns[/b] that any degree of variance, will upset their shots into greens.  Tiger, is NOT immune to this and given the number of massive swing changes that he's made with Sean, it is crystal clear (when you pay attention) what the problem with Tiger, is right now.

He's only had this new (stronger) compression on the ball for less than two years.  During the first year of the change, he was simply learning how to make contact with the ball and a flush/square club face.  Back then - his shots were sporadic because the tempo of the swing had slowed down.  He's holding a longer L-Position before impact and that has the feel of a longer golf swing at the bottom in the contact zone.  THAT is why you constantly saw him rehearsing golf swings after bad shots in the middle of the fairway using that exaggerated slicing move.  It was NOT a "slicing move" as Brandel Chamblee, stated incorrectly.  It was his way of exaggerating a more sustained L-Position through impact.  This is what places greater compression on the back of the ball.

Today, you don't see Tiger, practicing that exaggerated "slicing move" nearly as much anymore and that is because he is now comfortable with his balls striking.  The only remaining problem that he's trying to correct right now, is the consistency of holding the new L-Position.  To prove that to yourself, go watch the Golf Channel's review of both Sean and Tiger, working on the practice green today at the Ryder Cup.  You will see about five (5) minutes of footage, where Sean, exaggerates the L-Position by holding-off his left-wrist through impact.  Tiger, then steps up to the ball and models that image before hitting his ball on the range.  He then rehearses the extended L-Position after impact for the feeling of where he wants his wrists after the ball is gone.

Once he tweaks this feeling to point where he can then visually calculate where the new trajectory should be for that feeling, THEN you will start to see more birdie puts from inside of 20 feet.  At that point, he re-takes the Number # 1 Player in the World again, and goes on to win five (5) more majors over the next 10 years.

Nobody, can play with Tiger, when he's controlling his trajectory from the fairway.  Nobody.  Right now, the new compression function is the only thing standing his way - not Rory, not Phil, and not Vjay.

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Originally Posted by k-troop

http://www.pgatour.com/golfers/008793/tiger-woods/season/#uber

You can post 5,000 word essays, or you could simply look at some stats.  In 2009 Tiger won six times.  Only once that year did he play two consecutive tournaments with 7 rounds in the 60s:  the 2009 BMW and Tour Championship during the playoffs.  He finished those two events 1, 2.  The last time he did it before that was 2007, when he played 3 straight events without posting a score in the 70s.  Guess what--he won all of those events too.

The same stretch of great golf netted him Zero wins this year, because Rory played better.  To me, that says that Tiger put up his A game, but was beaten by someone who played better.  And not someone who played better for one round, or one week.  Rory beat him two weeks in a row, by 5 shots.

You can make an Elephant fly coast-to-coast with statistics in a vacuum.  An "essay" on "How Professional Golf Players Optimize Their Game," might be what many people need, in order to understand why their posts are so far off the mark.

Using periods where Tiger's scoring average was historically low (for him) and then juxtaposing that to the number of wins he had then -vs- now, is an interesting exercise but it certainly does not explain Rory, as the factor for why Tiger, is not winning as much now.  Rory, beat Tiger, two weeks in a row?  Are you serious?  Two weeks!  I thought you were going to tell me that Rory, has been beating Tiger, ever since Rory, came on Tour - like Tiger, was beating Phil, Vjay, Love III, Daly and Duval, etc.  Two weeks does not make one the "Next Guy."  Heck, two years won't make Rory, the "Next Guy" in reality.

Tiger, has such an enormous body of work and accomplishment, that we are going to have to wait a long time before raising the name of Rory, into the rarefied air of Tiger Woods, Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead and Bobby Jones - for goodness sakes.  We are talking 18 and 14 majors respectively here - remember?  And, in Tiger's case we are also talking about 74 PGA Tour wins and 38 wins in Europe .  Not to mention 16 WGC victories.  How many wins does Rory, have in Europe?

So, how on earth can you claim that Tiger, has played consistently with his "A" game subsequent to 2010?  He's shown flashes of his "A" game subsequent to 2010.  That's not the same as playing consistently with his "B" to "A" game, however.

From the end of 2009, through 2010 and up to now - Tiger, has consistently played with his C+/B- (sometimes as low as C-/D+) game the vast majority of the time, and STILL managed to capture about 4 wins at that level of golf and was only four (4) shots off the lead in one Masters during that period and really should have won at Olympic in the U.S. Open this year, in a patented come-from-behind victory - had it not been for the loss of trajectory control from the fairway with his irons, which put him into too much putting trouble on the greens, or forced a chipping condition from a bad green side location.  He was on a typical, very steady come-back trajectory for winning this years U.S. Open, until the speed of his swing fell out of place.

To the contrary - we have not seen Tiger's consistent "A" game in a while now.  However, once he gets the trajectory issue grooved in the way its going to be and allows himself the benefit of taking his slower practice range tempo onto the course for four (4) full days - THEN - you will see his consistent "A" game again and far more birdie opportunities from within 20 feet pin high .

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Maybe it's just me but for a torch to be passed it requires the new torchbearer to surpass the former torchbearer. This isn't a seasonal accomplishment. Tiger would have to experience a long period of decline before the claim has any relevance. We've been here before with Phil, Vijay and others. Tiger finishing 2nd to Rory in nearly every category is a long way from being washed up. He was a few strokes and unlucky bounces away from being number 1 playing nowhere near the level he has in the past. The torch will be passed only when someone can dominate the way he did for extended periods of time. Not just a good season but leaving everyone else in the dust. It's not happening right now.

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First time poster, long time lurker.  In my younger days, I played a lot of AJGA events, US Junior AM, US Am and top invitational amateur events.  I played high major golf but realized as good as I was there were so many players better than me so I didn't even attempt to pursue golf professionally and went to work on Wall Street.  Through the years I've gotten to play with a number of incredible players both competitively and casually.  Most of the time when I've played with PGA Tour players I've watched them and understood their game.  I could see weaknesses and thought that if I had given golf 100% perhaps I could be on their level.  I kicked myself a bit for giving up golf (especially when I was working 90 hours/week and walking through NY slush in December).  Then I played with Rory McIlroy.  He plays a different game than any other pro (including Tiger).  He plays with ease.  His game is nothing short of beautiful.   Rory is the most talented golfer to ever grace this planet.  Tiger became the most dominant player through a combination of technical perfection, mental determination and great talent.  Rory is dominant because his talent is sublime, it's transcendent.  Comparing Rory and Tiger isn't fair to either.  Tiger didn't have to face Rory in his prime and Rory won't face Tiger in his prime.  They're completely different personalities and both fit their eras.  Tiger was brash, untouchable and unknowable.  Rory's charismatic, approachable and humble.  I believe that Tiger knows his dominance is over.  For all his faults, Tiger is an incredibly perceptive individual.  He sees what even his fans refuse to see, that McIlroy is head and shoulders above the rest.  Rory will never be Tiger, I don't think he'll win 14 majors but I do think he'll win 8-10.  McIlroy is more Palmer than Nicklaus.  Palmer changed the game, just like Tiger did.  Now Rory will change the game like those two.  As great as Jack was, he didn't transform golf.  Palmer and Woods brought the game to where it is today.  Rory will keep the torch lit, for a long time and golfers everywhere should be thankful for him.

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What happens if Rory, does not meet such a lofty expectation?  Look at what they have done with Tiger, in their setting of wild expectations.  They have every golfing novice out there actually believing that Tiger, should or would win every time he tees it up and that's simply not fair.  You can't lay that kind of expectation on anyone Player's shoulders because it is a load that no one can possibly carry. They are building up Rory, far too quickly and far to greatly.  Six (6) wins tour, even if two (2) of them are Majors - is not a regular tour tournament to major even ratio that anyone will ever be able to maintain forever and you would think that these people would understand that.  That's an effective 33% kill ratio.  So, for every six (6) tournament wins, these guys are setting him up to win two (2) majors.  Nine (9) wins next year, should equate to three (3) majors.  If he wins twelve (12) PGA Tour events next year, then by their own new definition of what it means to be "The Man on Tour," he'll have to win the Grand Slam of Golf. Only Jack and Tiger, have done that respectively in a single 365 day period. Lastly, when they say to the world that "This is the Best Golfer on the Planet," when the man with 103 [U] professional [/U] wins and 14 major victories (I said 103 PGA Tour wins last time, that was in error) is sitting in the same room (figuratively speaking) then yes indeed, they are attempting to diminish what that man has accomplished.  However, they do it very foolishly - as the record speaks volumes for itself. I knew this was going to happen.  After Tiger's personal life became front page news, there have been industry forces at play attempting to "replace" the face of golf.  I knew that if anybody were to simple have a back-to-back victory and one or two major wins in a single season (I did not care who it was when originally said this would happen two years ago), that they would use that Player as the air-apparent to Tiger Woods, regardless of how under qualified that Player's resume might be in the aggregate.  The fact that this Player just happened to be the new young gun that many people like and who is very talented, only made their decision to run with the storyline that much more likely. I knew this would happen two years ago and I'm watching it unfold right now.  The only problem for these people is that Tiger...... well.... he's still Tiger and he still (I believe) wants to win Majors. So, let's get this show on the road.  I can't wait for the Ryder Cup, when they put Tiger and Rory, together.  But, more importantly, I can't wait for the Masters next year even more.  I'm getting the distinct feeling that Tiger's game will be nicely tuned for Augusta, come 2013.  I don't know that Tiger, will ever win another British, given the course set-ups and his new swing.  However, his new swing set's up well for the Masters, PGA Championship and the U.S. Open, on just about any given course.  And, I would not at all be surprised if Championship #19 came at the Masters - and what a fitting moment that would be - tying it all together were it all began in 1997.  He's got a flare for the dramatic, so we shall see. I don't expect much more strategic dominance that we've seen in the past.  But, I do expect to see a more tactical display of victories in critical tournaments.  That last U.S. Open at The Olympic Club in San Francisco.... there was no reason why Tiger, could not have won that event.  His putter let him down big time and that needs to be addressed.  Quite frankly, I would like to be the one to get Tiger, to consider making a move BACK to his game winning putter.  He never putted better and he never putted more smoothly.  He's having too much difficulty fighting with this new putting and keeping in online. As far as his driving goes, he's driving either as good or better than he ever has.  He's never been the most accurate driver for any consistent stretch of time, but he's always had the best second shots into greens from any distance and any lie, than anyone in the modern game, followed by some of the best putting by anyone in the modern game.  That's what won all those Major Tournaments.  The problem as I see it, is his new approach to lagging the club head behind his hands before impact.  His bowing of the left wrist is what's causing even more compressing of the golf ball, but it is also causing problems with distance control. Tiger, has always concluded that [U] trajectory controls distance [/U].  He always used to say that, in nearly every interview he gave when he was asked about his iron play.  He's lacking trajectory control right now and that is because of the new approach to the down-swing.  He's compressing the ball better and thus hitting the ball greater distances with his irons, but the control factor in the flight of the ball, is missing something critical and that causes these shot we now see to either come up [U]far too short of the whole, or too far beyond the hole[/U] .  Something we never used to see from Tiger, in years past. He used to talk about how difficult it was to [U]"flick the wrist"[/U] with consistent accuracy.  Yet that's closer to what he's doing right now, than where he was with Butch Harmon.  That bowing action, which allows for a longer sustained "L-Position" before impact, is the thing that is causing him difficulty right now. Try it at home.  Go out to the range an intentionally hold-off the unhinging of your wrist-cock to extend the duration of the L-Position before impact.  Once you learn how to hit the golf ball that way, it will send your ball further in the air naturally.  However, you will also notice difficult with [U] Distance Control [/U].  Then, leave the range and go out and try to play with that same delayed L-Position before impact and take note how wild your distance control will be into greens. This is one of the most critical elements in his swing changes that he's trying to negotiate to a resolution right now with his body.  With that kind of swing, you do hit the ball further, but you also have to have near perfect timing in releasing your club head and allowing your wrists to roll over through the contact zone.  He's Tiger Woods, so if he decides to stick with this new swing, he will figure out a method that he can use in tournament play.  This will put him closer to the hole on average (within 25 feet) and give him more realistic looks at birdie more often.  That one thing alone will put him back on top of the leader board in most tournaments he enters. But, to win outright by multiple stroke like he used to, he's going to have to make final decision about his putter.  And, quite frankly, I do not like this new putter.  I contacts the ball higher on the equator than his last putter and that is causing inconsistency in [U] speed modulation [/U].  He's not modulating his speed anywhere near as consistently as he used to, when his putter made contact with the equator of the ball at a lower position.  That meant that he was putting either level with the equator, or fractionally up and through the ball from below the equator.  Today, he's either putting at the equator, or down and through the ball, which is causing the variations in ball speed through the spin rate.  Its like pitching a knuckleball in baseball - the initial spin rate is different, and therefore the [U]speed to the target is different[/U] . No doubt, he knows all about these problems and is working on a solution.  No different than any Engineer, who knows about key technical problems in their design and seeks a solution to fix them. Second shots into greens (using trajectory to control distance given the more acute L-Postion before impact) and putting speed (getting the putter lower on the equator to control spin rate).  That's all he needs to fix with the new swing.  Once that is done, hello 19th Major.

Wow! The real question is- what type of grass are you smoking? This post is the most delusional thing I've ever read here or anywhere. I sure hope Tiger reads it, and takes all of your swing advice to heart. And of course to change his putter- you dont like it. What planet did you say you're from again? I'm also so glad that you told us previously that when Tiger ISN'T in the field, that you root for Rory. UNLESS Phil is in the field with Rory, then you're 50-50 there. BUT, if Dustin Johnson is also in the field (with Rory and Phil, no Tiger!) you give each 1/3rd of your rooting heart!! Thanks for sharing that - Priceless!! Okay, gotta go... Going to work on my L position! Cookoo cookoo...

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Maybe it's just me but for a torch to be passed it requires the new torchbearer to surpass the former torchbearer. This isn't a seasonal accomplishment. Tiger would have to experience a long period of decline before the claim has any relevance. We've been here before with Phil, Vijay and others. Tiger finishing 2nd to Rory in nearly every category is a long way from being washed up. He was a few strokes and unlucky bounces away from being number 1 playing nowhere near the level he has in the past. The torch will be passed only when someone can dominate the way he did for extended periods of time. Not just a good season but leaving everyone else in the dust. It's not happening right now.

Maybe it's like the Olympic torch relay and they're running side by side in a big group.

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Originally Posted by golfgolf

First time poster, long time lurker.  In my younger days, I played a lot of AJGA events, US Junior AM, US Am and top invitational amateur events.  I played high major golf but realized as good as I was there were so many players better than me so I didn't even attempt to pursue golf professionally and went to work on Wall Street.  Through the years I've gotten to play with a number of incredible players both competitively and casually.  Most of the time when I've played with PGA Tour players I've watched them and understood their game.  I could see weaknesses and thought that if I had given golf 100% perhaps I could be on their level.  I kicked myself a bit for giving up golf (especially when I was working 90 hours/week and walking through NY slush in December).  Then I played with Rory McIlroy.  He plays a different game than any other pro (including Tiger).  He plays with ease.  His game is nothing short of beautiful.   Rory is the most talented golfer to ever grace this planet.  Tiger became the most dominant player through a combination of technical perfection, mental determination and great talent.  Rory is dominant because his talent is sublime, it's transcendent.  Comparing Rory and Tiger isn't fair to either.  Tiger didn't have to face Rory in his prime and Rory won't face Tiger in his prime.  They're completely different personalities and both fit their eras.  Tiger was brash, untouchable and unknowable.  Rory's charismatic, approachable and humble.  I believe that Tiger knows his dominance is over.  For all his faults, Tiger is an incredibly perceptive individual.  He sees what even his fans refuse to see, that McIlroy is head and shoulders above the rest.  Rory will never be Tiger, I don't think he'll win 14 majors but I do think he'll win 8-10.  McIlroy is more Palmer than Nicklaus.  Palmer changed the game, just like Tiger did.  Now Rory will change the game like those two.  As great as Jack was, he didn't transform golf.  Palmer and Woods brought the game to where it is today.  Rory will keep the torch lit, for a long time and golfers everywhere should be thankful for him.


Nice prose but I think for the most part you are more like a head over heels teen than an objective observer. I love to watch Rory swing but "transcendent" is as over the top as you can get. Next you'll pose him in a robe ascending the Earth. He's a great player with a great all around game who has the potential to be on the level with the very best. He's 23 and who knows what can happen in the next 20 years.

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First time poster, long time lurker.  In my younger days, I played a lot of AJGA events, US Junior AM, US Am and top invitational amateur events.  I played high major golf but realized as good as I was there were so many players better than me so I didn't even attempt to pursue golf professionally and went to work on Wall Street.  Through the years I've gotten to play with a number of incredible players both competitively and casually.  Most of the time when I've played with PGA Tour players I've watched them and understood their game.  I could see weaknesses and thought that if I had given golf 100% perhaps I could be on their level.  I kicked myself a bit for giving up golf (especially when I was working 90 hours/week and walking through NY slush in December).  Then I played with Rory McIlroy.  He plays a different game than any other pro (including Tiger).  He plays with ease.  His game is nothing short of beautiful.   Rory is the most talented golfer to ever grace this planet.  Tiger became the most dominant player through a combination of technical perfection, mental determination and great talent.  Rory is dominant because his talent is sublime, it's transcendent.  Comparing Rory and Tiger isn't fair to either.  Tiger didn't have to face Rory in his prime and Rory won't face Tiger in his prime.  They're completely different personalities and both fit their eras.  Tiger was brash, untouchable and unknowable.  Rory's charismatic, approachable and humble.  I believe that Tiger knows his dominance is over.  For all his faults, Tiger is an incredibly perceptive individual.  He sees what even his fans refuse to see, that McIlroy is head and shoulders above the rest.  Rory will never be Tiger, I don't think he'll win 14 majors but I do think he'll win 8-10.  McIlroy is more Palmer than Nicklaus.  Palmer changed the game, just like Tiger did.  Now Rory will change the game like those two.  As great as Jack was, he didn't transform golf.  Palmer and Woods brought the game to where it is today.  Rory will keep the torch lit, for a long time and golfers everywhere should be thankful for him.

Sounds like you're recounting a dream you had last night.

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My job is to be objective and I do it very well.  You guys have no idea how good McIlroy is but cling to the glory of Tiger who hasn't won a major since Rory was 18.  McIlroy wins the Masters and/or the Open next year.  Looking ahead to the majors schedule it sets up very well for him in the next 5 years.

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