Slow Play/Pace of Play vs Rules and Handicap

[Parker0065]

The equation for pace of play is pretty simple. It's (quality of golf)x(course congestion)!!! Even the slowest of slow players(not counting true beginners) can probably get around 18 holes in 4-4.5 hours playing by themselves or in a twosome on a wide open course. People get all upset about the little things when their stuck behind a slow group(myself included) like players not being ready to hit at the exact millisecond it's their turn to hit, or someone taking that third practice swing. But those issues aren't nearly as time consuming as the fact that they do all that, then skank the ball into the woods or mark a 2 foot putt for double bogey.

When it comes to scoring and pace of play you do have to have some "Situational Awareness". The first round of the Club Championship this year I got paired with a couple guy's that were really struggling. I guess because it was the Club Championship they figured they had to chew on their 2 footers for double bogey by marking the ball, studying the line and going through their entire routine. By the 18th hole I wanted to scream "Dude, your 20 over par and your putting for a Mother_F##king double,,,just hit the F###king ball" but I held back and waited patiently. By the end of the round I was so happy I knew that I wouldn't have to play with them the next day,,lol!!

All of us can make improvements like being ready when it's our turn and walking briskly to your ball but course congestion combined with a lot of hacking makes for a long day. Just like your only as strong as your weakest link, pace of play on a golf course is only as fast as your slowest player hacking it all over the place.

[Dave2512]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This is a major cause of log jams on busy courses.

I agree I don't like it when courses try to maximize revenue by randomly sticking people out there. Fortunately at that particular course, Coyote Creek, it doesn't happen often. Even when it does it's due to everyone showing up at the same time. Rural courses are odd in that way. The course could be empty mid day then suddenly have 10 people walk in without a tee time. Still it plays pretty fast because most are out in groups of two. It doesn't happen at Riverdale, Todd Creek or any of the others near by.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

A large part of slow play is what is done before a player starts to play his stroke...It's Guy #1 who gets to his ball then waits because Guy #2 on the other side of the fairway is 1 yard farther away, and that guy stopped to help the Guy #3 search in the bushes for his ball, then stood around while the guy played a punchout and an approach, then finally sauntered up to his ball and took his usual sweet time about setting up his shot.  Guys #1 and #2 could have taken their shots, then gone back to help Guy #3 if he still hadn't found his ball.  That way the full 5 minute search wouldn't have been wasted with all 3 players not playing their approach shots.  I really can't recall the last time i took the full 5 minutes for a search, particularly when pace of play is a concern.  It depends on just what the area is like where the ball is thought to lie.  If it's unlikely that even a half hour search would locate it, then I don't look any longer than it takes for my companions to play.  I go to my provisional ball and get on with it.  Quite frankly, one or two strokes on 2 rounds out of 5 or 6 isn't going to have a significant effect on your handicap.  If this is a problem more often than that, maybe it's your course management skills that need some attention.

And oh, by the way I do play by the rules, always.  The rules don't say that you must search for 5 minutes, only that 5 minutes is the maximum that you may search.   Depending on where I may have hit the ball, I may choose not to search at all, and that is not against the rules.  You read too much into the bit about striving for the best score possible.  What that refers to is not doing things like deliberately three putting to inflate your score, and thus, your handicap.  It has nothing to do with how long you may or may not choose to search for a misplaced ball.

Thanks for you post Rick, it is really at the heart of what I was trying to address.

I am sure you follow the rules of golf, but it sounds like you are a bit of a sandbagger when it comes to following the USGA handicapping guidelines- I guess we have a different idea of what it means to " try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played..."  Don`t you think 3 guys searching the full 5 minutes have a better chance of finding a ball than 1 guy searching for the first 3 minutes with 2 others helping the last 2?

While I have had no issue with lost balls at some courses that I have played, they are a big issue for me at other courses.  I can only think of 1 time this past season where I made as good a score losing a ball as I would likely have made had I found my original.  While I didn`t lose balls every round at Keystone Ranch, it was very infrequent for me not to have to look 2-4 minutes for balls at least once per round.  In some cases, it was a playing companion who found my ball after a multi-minute search.  On some of these occasions, I went on to make par or better on that hole, something I would not have been able to do had I abandoned my search too quickly and moved onto my provisional.  It was not unusual to find 2 to 5 other balls while searching- a few of these must have been the ones you gave up on because they had the fourputt logo on them .

While the rules of golf do not require you to search for the full 5 minutes, they do allow you to try to optimize your search results   Unless you think you can make as good or better a score with your provisional, it seems that under searching for a ball you have a chance to find and make a lower score with is not trying your hardest to make the best possible score the same as if you hit a putt without trying to read the break or hit an approach shot without estimating the yardage.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-27/#27/1

27/1

Player Directs Caddie Not to Search for His Ball Until Others Can Assist

Q. A hits a long drive into heavy rough. B hits a short drive into heavy rough. A's caddie starts walking towards the area where A's ball may be to search for A's ball. Everyone else, including A, walks towards the area where B's ball may be to look for B's ball. A directs his caddie also to look for B's ball and delay search for his (A's) ball until everyone else can assist. Is such procedure permitted?

A. Yes.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

A large part of slow play is what is done before a player starts to play his stroke...It's Guy #1 who gets to his ball then waits because Guy #2 on the other side of the fairway is 1 yard farther away, and that guy stopped to help the Guy #3 search in the bushes for his ball, then stood around while the guy played a punchout and an approach, then finally sauntered up to his ball and took his usual sweet time about setting up his shot.  Guys #1 and #2 could have taken their shots, then gone back to help Guy #3 if he still hadn't found his ball.  That way the full 5 minute search wouldn't have been wasted with all 3 players not playing their approach shots.  I really can't recall the last time i took the full 5 minutes for a search, particularly when pace of play is a concern.  It depends on just what the area is like where the ball is thought to lie.  If it's unlikely that even a half hour search would locate it, then I don't look any longer than it takes for my companions to play.  I go to my provisional ball and get on with it.  Quite frankly, one or two strokes on 2 rounds out of 5 or 6 isn't going to have a significant effect on your handicap.  If this is a problem more often than that, maybe it's your course management skills that need some attention.

And oh, by the way I do play by the rules, always.  The rules don't say that you must search for 5 minutes, only that 5 minutes is the maximum that you may search.   Depending on where I may have hit the ball, I may choose not to search at all, and that is not against the rules.  You read too much into the bit about striving for the best score possible.  What that refers to is not doing things like deliberately three putting to inflate your score, and thus, your handicap.  It has nothing to do with how long you may or may not choose to search for a misplaced ball.

Thanks for you post Rick, it is really at the heart of what I was trying to address.

I am sure you follow the rules of golf, but it sounds like you are a bit of a sandbagger when it comes to following the USGA handicapping guidelines- I guess we have a different idea of what it means to  "try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played..."  Don`t you think 3 guys searching the full 5 minutes have a better chance of finding a ball than 1 guy searching for the first 3 minutes with 2 others helping the last 2?

While I have had no issue with lost balls at some courses that I have played, they are a big issue for me at other courses.  I can only think of 1 time this past season where I made as good a score losing a ball as I would likely have made had I found my original.  While I didn`t lose balls every round at Keystone Ranch, it was very infrequent for me not to have to look 2-4 minutes for balls at least once per round.  In some cases, it was a playing companion who found my ball after a multi-minute search.  On some of these occasions, I went on to make par or better on that hole, something I would not have been able to do had I abandoned my search too quickly and moved onto my provisional.  It was not unusual to find 2 to 5 other balls while searching- a few of these must have been the ones you gave up on because they had the fourputt logo on them.

While the rules of golf do not require you to search for the full 5 minutes, they do allow you to try to optimize your search results   Unless you think you can make as good or better a score with your provisional, it seems that under searching for a ball you have a chance to find and make a lower score with is not trying your hardest to make the best possible score the same as if you hit a putt without trying to read the break or hit an approach shot without estimating the yardage.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-27/#27/1

27/1

Player Directs Caddie Not to Search for His Ball Until Others Can Assist

Q.A hits a long drive into heavy rough. B hits a short drive into heavy rough. A's caddie starts walking towards the area where A's ball may be to search for A's ball. Everyone else, including A, walks towards the area where B's ball may be to look for B's ball. A directs his caddie also to look for B's ball and delay search for his (A's) ball until everyone else can assist. Is such procedure permitted?

A.Yes.

You still have to put in the qualifier that if the player did as 27/1 suggests, he could also end up being penalized for slow play.  That decision can only be invoked if you are not causing a roadblock on the course.  Just because you are following a rule or decision to the letter, doesn't mean that you are always in the right.  If taking that tack causes you to unduly delay play, then you are guilty of not only facing a breach of the pace of play policy, but you just messed up the rounds of the players behind you and the ones behind them, etc. on back down the line as they all bump into each other trying to get past the logjam you created.

That line in the handicap manual of which you are so fond applies to intentionally taking unnecessary strokes to pad ones handicap.  It was never intended to be applied in the way that you have interpreted it. If that was the case, then rules like the lost ball rule would require that you must take 5 minutes before giving up the search.  Since those words are not in the rule, then such a condition doesn't exist.  It is always the player's option to declare a ball unplayable anywhere on the course.  That is Rule 28.  That means that if I hit the ball into some bushes where finding the ball or having a play on it is unlikely, or maybe undesirable, then I may choose to not play a provisional ball.  I may simply declare the original ball unplayable and play again from the same spot.  That is not sandbagging (and I somewhat resent your accusation of such).  If it was, then declaring it unplayable would not be allowed until after the player had gone forward and determined the true status of his ball.  In such a case it is using common sense and keeping pace with the group in front by not wasting time in a fruitless search.  That line about trying to shoot the lowest score possible just have the common sense phrase:  The player must try to post the lowest score possible while playing within the Rules of Golf.  That is what it really means, and taking it to supersede the rules is a backwards interpretation.

What do you do if you play a provisional ball, then go forward and find that your original ball is in an unplayable position and the only possible relief is to go back to the previous spot?  Do you follow the rule exactly, abandon your provisional ball, and return to the last spot during a casual round which is only being played for handicap?  Do you pick up and just mark your ESC max?  I'm not busting your chops on this.  I'm just pointing out that there are situations in a non-competition round where dogged adherence to every small nuance of the rules can make the round uncomfortable for those you are playing with and for the players following you.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You still have to put in the qualifier that if the player did as 27/1 suggests, he could also end up being penalized for slow play.  That decision can only be invoked if you are not causing a roadblock on the course.  Just because you are following a rule or decision to the letter, doesn't mean that you are always in the right.  If taking that tack causes you to unduly delay play, then you are guilty of not only facing a breach of the pace of play policy, but you just messed up the rounds of the players behind you and the ones behind them, etc. on back down the line as they all bump into each other trying to get past the logjam you created.

This is what I was hoping to see from this thread.  So can taking 4 minutes to search for a ball be considered a violation of rule 6-7?  Decision 6-7/2 says a 10 minute search might be undue delay, but I can`t find anything about a 4 minute search http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-06/#6-7/2 I am not saying you are wrong, but I can`t find it.

One of my pet peeves about the Lost Ball rule is that it is very penal and seems biased against players who do not have the resources (i.e. galleries, caddies, fore caddies, helpful playing partners) to aid in the search.

So can searching as permitted under decision 27/1 really get you a penalty under 6-7?  Do others agree with this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

"That line in the handicap manual of which you are so fond applies to intentionally taking unnecessary strokes to pad ones handicap.  It was never intended to be applied in the way that you have interpreted it. If that was the case, then rules like the lost ball rule would require that you must take 5 minutes before giving up the search.  Since those words are not in the rule, then such a condition doesn't exist.  It is always the player's option to declare a ball unplayable anywhere on the course.  That is Rule 28.  That means that if I hit the ball into some bushes where finding the ball or having a play on it is unlikely, or maybe undesirable, then I may choose to not play a provisional ball.  I may simply declare the original ball unplayable and play again from the same spot.  That is not sandbagging (and I somewhat resent your accusation of such).  If it was, then declaring it unplayable would not be allowed until after the player had gone forward and determined the true status of his ball.  In such a case it is using common sense and keeping pace with the group in front by not wasting time in a fruitless search.  That line about trying to shoot the lowest score possible just have the common sense phrase:  The player must try to post the lowest score possible while playing within the Rules of Golf.  That is what it really means, and taking it to supersede the rules is a backwards interpretation."

Now you are going too far.  It might not ALWAYS be better to find your first ball.  If you hit it somewhere that you know is completely dead then proceeding under rule 28 might be your best option.  Of course, there are times that your original will be the better play if you can find it, depending on how well you hit your provisional.  i.e. I pushed my drive about 25 yards left of Keystone Ranch #11 into some very long grass and then proceeded to hit my provisional to within 4 feet of the cup, leaving me with a par putt if I didn`t find my original.  In this case it did not hurt me losing the original, but if I had hit my provisional into the bunker, I would have had more incentive to find my first one as I still would have had a good chance at par if found.  The point is, it would not have made sense to declare my first one unplayable under rule 28...the smarter play was to hit a provisional and wait and see.  Requiring someone to look for 5 minutes does not result in a lower score in all situations.  Your example is really not related to what I was trying to talk about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

"What do you do if you play a provisional ball, then go forward and find that your original ball is in an unplayable position and the only possible relief is to go back to the previous spot?  Do you follow the rule exactly, abandon your provisional ball, and return to the last spot during a casual round which is only being played for handicap?  Do you pick up and just mark your ESC max?  I'm not busting your chops on this.  I'm just pointing out that there are situations in a non-competition round where dogged adherence to every small nuance of the rules can make the round uncomfortable for those you are playing with and for the players following you."

Not busting my chops at all...I had this situation yesterday and feel this is a case where I think the ROG are inconsistent with promoting faster play.  I hit my drive into the scrub left and hit a provisional (perfect down the middle) because I was not sure if I would find it.  My opponent (friend) found my 1st one against against some scrub brush with no left handed swing possible- being that there was nowhere reasonable to drop within 2 club lengths or behind the line, under the ROG, I could either play it as it lies (by turning my left handed club around, standing in a very awkward lie and swinging right handed) or go back to the tee and re hit.  In a stroke play format, going back to the tee was probably the safer bet, but we were playing match play and had people behind us, so I hit a great right handed pitch out instead.

You are correct that a "dogged adherence to every small nuance of the rules can make the round uncomfortable for those you playing with and for the players following you."  This is an example where I feel the rules of golf would be improved by either letting you play your provisional or by expanding the options of where you can take an unplayable lie.  In a more general sense, I think the rules of golf could be simplified and improved to be more consistent with how most players actually play.  As it stands now, a guy who follows all the rules is the exception who make others feel uncomfortable rather than the norm that others try to emulate.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

"What do you do if you play a provisional ball, then go forward and find that your original ball is in an unplayable position and the only possible relief is to go back to the previous spot?  Do you follow the rule exactly, abandon your provisional ball, and return to the last spot during a casual round which is only being played for handicap?  Do you pick up and just mark your ESC max?  I'm not busting your chops on this.  I'm just pointing out that there are situations in a non-competition round where dogged adherence to every small nuance of the rules can make the round uncomfortable for those you are playing with and for the players following you."

Not busting my chops at all...I had this situation yesterday and feel this is a case where I think the ROG are inconsistent with promoting faster play.  I hit my drive into the scrub left and hit a provisional (perfect down the middle) because I was not sure if I would find it.  My opponent (friend) found my 1st one against against some scrub brush with no left handed swing possible- being that there was nowhere reasonable to drop within 2 club lengths or behind the line, under the ROG, I could either play it as it lies (by turning my left handed club around, standing in a very awkward lie and swinging right handed) or go back to the tee and re hit.  In a stroke play format, going back to the tee was probably the safer bet, but we were playing match play and had people behind us, so I hit a great right handed pitch out instead.

You are correct that a "dogged adherence to every small nuance of the rules can make the round uncomfortable for those you playing with and for the players following you."  This is an example where I feel the rules of golf would be improved by either letting you play your provisional or by expanding the options of where you can take an unplayable lie.  In a more general sense, I think the rules of golf could be simplified and improved to be more consistent with how most players actually play.  As it stands now, a guy who follows all the rules is the exception who make others feel uncomfortable rather than the norm that others try to emulate.

I still don't think you get my main point.  The statement in the handicap manual is based on intent.  What is the reason for abandoning the search?  If it is not an intentional attempt to pad your handicap, and you are otherwise within the parameters of the rules, then you are not doing anything wrong.  The handicap manual allows you to post the most likely score for an unfinished hole, or par plus handicap stroke(s) for a hole not played under the rules.  So you always have this fall back safety net when playing a round for handicap.  Again, I think that you have way over-analyzed this entire situation.

[bigwave916]

Originally Posted by David in FL

I've played 6 of these tournaments this past year. They have a very stringent pace of play rule and are consistent in applying it. I've never exceeded 4:45 for the round. Most were under 4 1/2. Slower than I personally prefer, but not silly slow by any means.

I'm sorry, but if you're claiming 4 hours for 9 holes, I simply don't believe you.

X2