Whaa? You mean you roll your hands?

[KCNick]

I came to the forum today to ask about this exact thing.

I just got back into golf and hacked away at the range about 3 times. Never been able to hit the ball consistently, never really had a set swing until I started watching every golf lesson I could find on Youtube, especially on setup, legs, and swing.

So far I got my setup down pretty good and had really great results striking the ball with my 9 and PW. Things were getting crazier the longer the iron I pulled out though.

So I get back and I look at more video specifically on backswing and notice this one about creating space with my pivot. Basically making sure I'm not laterally moving right, and am instead spinning my right hip inside its original line to create my backturn.

Then I understood (correctly I hope) that I should be driving my hands down and inside to create great loft and distance. This would allow the hands to get ahead of the club at impact.

So I go test this out on my little ball-attached-to-a-rope thing, and sure enough I can drive down on it and make contact. Seemingly able to make a divot at or in front of the ball. Most of my club marks were actually under the ball so I figure since it's solid plywood, that the actual turf would be gone ahead of it)

BUT... the thing was swinging like a mad slice had just occured. So I slow-motioned what I was doing to find out driving my hands forward was leaving the club head behind and insanely open.

To correct it I tried consciously rolling my hands before impact to square the clubface, and was able to get the ball swinging around in a straight line.

I couldn't help thinking though that this conscious rolling of the hands is something I've never done before and seems a little awkward in thought. The rolling itself is pretty smooth and seems to generate a little snap, but my question is:

Should I actively be trying to roll through impact, or is this something that should be happening naturally that I am preventing somehow?

[Ringer]

I came to the forum today to ask about this exact thing.

Unfortunately this entirely depends on the rest of your swing.

What I have found is that I can either teach someone an entire swing which is proper and let the release happen naturally... or I can teach someone to force the release and never worry about the rest of the swing. If you want a quick fix, force the release. If you want a long term fix, you gotta look at the whole swing and then let the release happen naturally. A great example of these two differences. Rory Sabatini and Woody Austin. Rory has a strong grip and has to force a slight hold off of his release while he twists WAY AROUND. Woody is very balanced and just lets the release happen.

[KCNick]

Unfortunately this entirely depends on the rest of your swing.

Mmm that does sound very unfortunate lol. I definitely would want a long-term fix. Probably something I should take up with a pro if I ever end up getting a lesson. The twisting was the other thing I was thinking about working on instead of rolling my hands. If I was looking down at a clock on the ground, and the ball was on 12 o'clock... my chest would be pointing at maybe 11 through impact. Maybe that's way too little twist forward at impact?

[Ringer]

I'm not so much worried about where the chest is facing at impact as much as I'm concerned about the direction of the right hip.

[sonicblue]

I've said it on here before, I'll say it again. Go back to your pitching wedge to 100 yards. If you can't hit that shot consistently, you've got a VERY fundamental problem. IMO, you'll find that fixing that very fundamental problem will suddenly make every other problem seemingly go away. I think most people undo fundamentals when they try to swing harder/faster, hit it higher/lower, etc.... When you get "off," go back to basics and then re-build up to your goal.

[KCNick]

I've said it on here before, I'll say it again. Go back to your pitching wedge to 100 yards. If you can't hit that shot consistently, you've got a VERY fundamental problem. IMO, you'll find that fixing that very fundamental problem will suddenly make every other problem seemingly go away. I think most people undo fundamentals when they try to swing harder/faster, hit it higher/lower, etc.... When you get "off," go back to basics and then re-build up to your goal.

Yeah definitely. I haven't been to the range since I watched all the videos on driving the hands in front of the club.

But before when I was basically arm-swinging, my 9 and SW were looking pretty good. I'm pretty sure my trouble with longer irons is I try to swing harder/faster because I think there is no way this 5 iron is going to go anywhere if I swing it like my wedge. I am aware of that though and trying to make all my iron swings the same, just moving ball position slightly. Everything feels pretty good now, just trying to solve the open club face thing. I just watched that Tiger iron video in the other thread and I see what Ringer is saying about the hip. Tiger is turning his hips much more open to the target through impact. I'll try working on that and see what happens next time out.

[Ringer]

I've said it on here before, I'll say it again. Go back to your pitching wedge to 100 yards. If you can't hit that shot consistently, you've got a VERY fundamental problem. IMO, you'll find that fixing that very fundamental problem will suddenly make every other problem seemingly go away. I think most people undo fundamentals when they try to swing harder/faster, hit it higher/lower, etc.... When you get "off," go back to basics and then re-build up to your goal.

I extracted this drill from another forum where I posted it...

Without any golf ball just start at your setup position. Then go to a finish where all your weight is on your front foot, back foot has the toe down, elbows out in front of your chest and your chest is facing the target. Do this as slowly as you have to. We're not even considering this a swing yet. Just identify position 1 and position 2. Setup, and finish. Repeat it over and over again trying to build up a mental image of what your finish SHOULD look like from your perspective. It is SO important that you have a clear idea what you want that finish to be. Then, add just a small fraction of a backswing. Not even 2 feet. Barely make the club move back, but then go all the way to your finish and hold it. Repeat this at least another 10 times. Now, still only going two feet and SLOWLY, go ahead and add a golf ball to the mix. I don't want you to try and hit this ball any more than 10 feet. It's not even about hitting the ball it's about putting a ball in the way during the exercise. After 10 times, add another couple of feet to the backswing so that you are at about hip level but STILL slow. Resist the urge to hit the ball... your focus should ALWAYS be on getting to the finish position you want despite the golf ball. Eventually when you feel comfortable with this finish position and you KNOW that you are getting to it every time, you can now make a full backswing. But STILL your mind should not be on trying to make the ball go anywhere... it's about finishing. The whole exercise is about repeating the finish no matter what is happening between setup and finish.

[Big Lex]

Rolling the hands is the subject of some very contentious writing among golf teachers, instruction books, etc.

As a certified golf geek, here's how I see it:

1. In order to make a full swing, there has to be some rotation of the arms (and therefore wrists)--meaning internal and external rotation of the shoulder joint--or otherwise you can only make a very short swing.

2. The wrists and hands follow this rotation of the arms, so both hands tend to go through cycles of pronation/supination in the swing. For a right handed golfer, the right hand supinates going back, and pronates on the forward and through swing.

3. This action, obviously, turns the club face, so it must be timed correctly in order to hit the ball squarely.

4. Your grip affects this timing. If you have a very strong grip, there is little to no need for pronation of the right hand until after the ball is gone. Because if you have a strong grip, you're starting with your right hand supinated at address, and if you pronate, you'll have a dead shut club face. So a strong grip simplifies the timing part of things in that you don't have to pronate at impact as much, or at all if your grip is strong enough.

5. Again, though, even strong grip players need to rotate the arms in order to make a full swing, so there is a need to rotate the arms after the ball is hit. If you do this too early, you get the hook/smother.

Seems to me that the strong grip would be an easier grip to use to play consistently, but obviously champions through the years have had strong grips, neutral grips, and weak grips.

Any opinions on this?

[KCNick]

Couldn't resist going to the range tonight after thinking so much today...

I have never hit a 5 or 6 iron so beautifully in my life, and without even trying to smash the thing. It actually flew in the air and down gently with a little fade.

Basically, I tried to focus more on starting my downswing with my hips, not trying to speed up anything, and keeping my eye on the ball as I turned through.

I never even thought about my hands or my arms... I can't believe I actually hit the ball without thinking about either of those.

Still have a ton to work on: tempo, transition, finishing; but I feel great about the basic principles of my downswing and release right now... certainly the potential I saw today. I can't believe I made my 6 iron look like my old 9 iron in flight, and each club I hit seemed to go at least 10 yards farther than what I was doing before.

Thanks so much!

[fusioncal]

Couldn't resist going to the range tonight after thinking so much today...

I was gonna tell you to synchronize your upper body and lower body during the downswing, but it seems you're doing fine now. In addition, sometimes it's best not to be too mechanical about your swing. Just have a "feel" of it.

Anyway, I sure hope you get the "feel" of the swing and also have it ingrained. Believe me, one day your body will just "forget" the swing you have right now. Just keep swinging.

[sonicblue]

Couldn't resist going to the range tonight after thinking so much today...

Pivotal session for you! Congrats! I remember that EXACT feeling, which basically is saying that you are feeling your big muscles - which are much easier to feel than your little muscles - and that all the little ones are connected well and coming along for the ride. Now take it to the course!

[Leek]

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