To Move or Not Move the Head in the Golf Swing

[iacas]

I’ve done that. Usually in short bursts so the student can tell if their feelings are working. It can be useful if used appropriately.

Grout used to grab Nicklaus’s hair.

[Nick_wahl_]

The answer is to not thinking about keeping it still and not to think about moving it either. Get the body to work correctly and the head will work correctly. 

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

 

The answer is to not thinking about keeping it still and not to think about moving it either

 

Many golfers move their heads incorrectly without even knowing it. Sometimes getting them to focus on their head will improve what their bodies are doing.

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Many golfers move their heads incorrectly without even knowing it. Sometimes getting them to focus on their head will improve what their bodies are doing.

Yup.

[Nick_wahl_]

15 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Many golfers move their heads incorrectly without even knowing it. Sometimes getting them to focus on their head will improve what their bodies are doing.

Sure, I can buy that it may give the appearance of improvement. There are 100s of popular swing thoughts for every aspect of the golf swing and typically, every swing thought (where the person is putting body awareness) will have unintended consequences elsewhere in the swing. The key is to apply a swing thought (awareness) that does not cause unintended consequences in the swing that negatively effect it. Thinking of the head staying still is one of the worst thoughts to teach. 99% will loose dynamics. 

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

Sure, I can buy that it may give the appearance of improvement.

No, it actually improves things for some people, not just "the appearance" of it.

For example, I've told people "feel like your head moves down and forward a foot" during the backswing to help them understand how their body had to work on the backswing, just to keep their heads relatively steady and their bodies working properly. I've told others to feel that their head goes a foot forward on the downswing, too…

9 minutes ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

The key is to apply a swing thought (awareness) that does not cause unintended consequences in the swing that negatively effect it. Thinking of the head staying still is one of the worst thoughts to teach. 99% will loose dynamics.

I'm not really sure where you're coming into this discussion. It's page five, and it's two+ weeks after a recent short burst of discussion, but… what's the context for your comments?

I don't really tell people "keep your head still." And I don't think I've ever really said that to anyone. So…

BTW, not for nothing, but welcome to TST. We (me) are pretty blunt here with regards to instruction, and speaking for a few of us, don't get offended easily, and we ask the same. At the end of the day it's just golf, and if you're a "swing guy," I look forward to some good and earnest conversations.

[Nick_wahl_]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm not really sure where you're coming into this discussion. It's page five, and it's two+ weeks after a recent short burst of discussion, but… what's the context for your comments?

I don't really tell people "keep your head still." And I don't think I've ever really said that to anyone. So…

BTW, not for nothing, but welcome to TST. We (me) are pretty blunt here with regards to instruction, and speaking for a few of us, don't get offended easily, and we ask the same. At the end of the day it's just golf, and if you're a "swing guy," I look forward to some good and earnest conversations.

This is my first day on TPT. I figured the idea was to jump in with your thoughts and ideas.

 
My belief is that the head will move naturally if the body works properly and I don’t believe that putting awareness on the movements of the head is the right way to go about it. If the head is working incorrectly it’s because the body is working incorrectly. For example, when someone sees a head moving up in the backswing and way left in the downswing (face on view) they may advise “feel like your head goes down in the backswing and back in the downswing” or whatever. I look at what there body is doing to find the root cause of those poor motions and start there. 
 

And thank you!! 🤙🏻 I won’t get offended lol. I love talking and debating the golf swing with others. I’ve played golf almost my whole life (I’m 28 now started at 8 ). Literally my favorite thing in the world is golf haha. I still spend 3+ hours daily hitting balls and probably spend 3 hours reading content online and watching videos.  

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

This is my first day on TPT. I figured the idea was to jump in with your thoughts and ideas.

It is. But… it's generally wise to try to avoid making "always/never" type statements, no?

10 minutes ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

My belief is that the head will move naturally if the body works properly

And if the body doesn't work properly?

10 minutes ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

I don’t believe that putting awareness on the movements of the head is the right way to go about it.

And I try to be practical about it, and give people feels that work for them, and have helped a number of people by saying, as I said above, something like "feel like your head moves down and forward a foot in the backswing" to change what their body was doing.

It's not often the first thing I go to, but… some people, you can tell them all the "body" feels and not see results, and then tell them something like that, and they get it.

10 minutes ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

If the head is working incorrectly it’s because the body is working incorrectly.

Of course, but that's beside the point. The head is a reference point, really (though for some how the head works or more so the neck can affect the way the body works, rather than the much more common vice versa).

10 minutes ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

For example, when someone sees a head moving up in the backswing and way left in the downswing (face on view) they may advise “feel like your head goes down in the backswing and back in the downswing” or whatever. I look at what there body is doing to find the root cause of those poor motions and start there.

And if you "start there" and can't get the improvements you're after?

That's all I'm saying, man.

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

My belief is that the head will move naturally if the body works properly and I don’t believe that putting awareness on the movements of the head is the right way to go about it.

Well..for some sure. The head is a body part. Maybe putting emphasis on the lead shoulder does nothing for a student. Then you tell him/her to tilt their head a little back ( Jack Nicklaus like) and voila! It’s feels. Nobody here says ‘keep your head still’ unless for a particular student it creates a movement you want to see.

[Nick_wahl_]

On 4/2/2020 at 5:15 PM, Vinsk said:

Well..for some sure. The head is a body part. Maybe putting emphasis on the lead shoulder does nothing for a student. Then you tell him/her to tilt their head a little back ( Jack Nicklaus like) and voila! It’s feels. Nobody here says ‘keep your head still’ unless for a particular student it creates a movement you want to see.

...

I disagree wholeheartedly man. 
I think that there are 100s of ways to think about any particular desired move but that only a few (sometimes 1) will actually engage the proper body parts to actually improve a golf swing rather than give a false appearance of improvement. 
 

Ive been playing since I was a kid (20 years) and working on my swing like crazy for 10 years and went through 1000s of swing feels. I was always able to make my swing “look” better but never work better.  It wasn’t until I got the right feel that engaged the right muscles that everything changed and started to feel way easier. 
 

 

On 4/2/2020 at 2:49 PM, iacas said:

It is. But… it's generally wise to try to avoid making "always/never" type statements, no?

Fair enough. I should say in my opinion. I’m probably going to end up disagreeing with 99% of people on here about the golf swing though haha. 

On 4/2/2020 at 2:49 PM, iacas said:

And if the body doesn't work properly?

You teach them how to make it work correctly...

On 4/2/2020 at 2:49 PM, iacas said:

And I try to be practical about it, and give people feels that work for them, and have helped a number of people by saying, as I said above, something like "feel like your head moves down and forward a foot in the backswing" to change what their body was doing.

I feel that most instructors go through a “play book” of swing thoughts / feels to correct flaws until they find one that gives the appearance of improvement. 99% of the time those thoughts don’t actually engage the correct muscles and are only aesthetic. For example, You can have someone who rotates the shoulders way too flat on the backswing but is still on plane with the club. That’s a “fake out” in my opinion because that’s evidence that the hands and arms are forcing the plane rather that the body dictating it. 

On 4/2/2020 at 2:49 PM, iacas said:

It's not often the first thing I go to, but… some people, you can tell them all the "body" feels and not see results, and then tell them something like that, and they get it.

Of course, but that's beside the point. The head is a reference point, really (though for some how the head works or more so the neck can affect the way the body works, rather than the much more common vice versa).

And if you "start there" and can't get the improvements you're after?

I work on getting them to feel the correct body motion to engage the correct muscles. 

On 4/2/2020 at 2:49 PM, iacas said:

That's all I'm saying, man.

 

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

I work on getting them to feel the correct body motion to engage the correct muscles. 

Sounds like you may be  trying to get them to feel what you feel. You can’t tell people what they feel or should feel all the time. People’s proprioceptions, physical ability, muscle strength can be vastly different from one to the other.

 You keep saying ‘appearance of improvement.’ I don’t even know what you mean by that. If a student is moving his head 6” front side and drifting his body with hit and getting his club stuck back forcing him to throw the club to catch up..that’s a poor movement. You get him to make a centered pivot and correct this problem it’s not just an appearance. 
 

How you achieve that may not be the same for every student. I’m no professional by any means. @iacas is. It just seems like you’re trying to suggest feels are universal.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

I disagree wholeheartedly man. 

Then, as far as I can tell, you "disagree wholeheartedly" with me, too.

2 hours ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

I think that there are 100s of ways to think about any particular desired move but that only a few (sometimes 1) will actually engage the proper body parts to actually improve a golf swing rather than give a false appearance of improvement.

Often, particularly when you're talking about the torso and especially so the cervical spine or upper torso (or sternum, etc.), one of those "100s of ways" has to do with what the golfer feels that their head is doing.

I'm also not sure what a "false appearance of improvement" is. I would generally say that I know enough about something to say whether it's actually improved or not.

2 hours ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

Ive been playing since I was a kid (20 years) and working on my swing like crazy for 10 years and went through 1000s of swing feels.

@Vinsk has been playing longer than that. The length of time you've spent doing something… isn't much of a barometer for how good you are at it. PGA Tour players have been playing golf longer and better than you have… and typically suck at teaching.

2 hours ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

I was always able to make my swing “look” better but never work better.

Then you were wrong about what "looks" better.

2 hours ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

It wasn’t until I got the right feel that engaged the right muscles that everything changed and started to feel way easier.

Sometimes that "right feel" is "feel like your head moves forward a foot during this backswing."

2 hours ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

Fair enough. I should say in my opinion. I’m probably going to end up disagreeing with 99% of people on here about the golf swing though haha.

Then, bluntly, you're going to be wrong about a lot. Not 99%, but a lot.

2 hours ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

You teach them how to make it work correctly...

And sometimes "teaching them how to make it work correctly" involves telling them "feel that your head does…"

2 hours ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

I feel that most instructors go through a “play book” of swing thoughts / feels to correct flaws until they find one that gives the appearance of improvement.

You're not talking with "most instructors." I think "most instructors" are lousy.

2 hours ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

99% of the time those thoughts don’t actually engage the correct muscles and are only aesthetic.

We're not big fans of made-up numbers here. And again, I stopped paying for the sins of others on my own site when I created my own site. So stop putting that stuff on me/us.

2 hours ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

For example, You can have someone who rotates the shoulders way too flat on the backswing but is still on plane with the club. That’s a “fake out” in my opinion because that’s evidence that the hands and arms are forcing the plane rather that the body dictating it.

That's got little to nothing to do with me or the discussion here.

2 hours ago, Nick_wahl_ said:

I work on getting them to feel the correct body motion to engage the correct muscles. 

And sometimes getting "the correct body motion" involves telling them "feel that your head does…"

30 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

You keep saying ‘appearance of improvement.’ I don’t even know what you mean by that. If a student is moving his head 6” front side and drifting his body with hit and getting his club stuck back forcing him to throw the club to catch up..that’s a poor movement. You get him to make a centered pivot and correct this problem it’s not just an appearance.

Yeah, I'm not sure either. The only example of such that he's given — that his club is "on plane" but his shoulders are not — feels like a terrible example, and one in which few people here would say "yeah, that's better!"

[knott]

Head at the same height and never loose track of the ball is pretty much the only concious things I do when hitting irons. Driver there is more I need to do. 

Sometimes when my Iron play is good I get the feel I can swing without these thoughts but without hardly any exception severly punished everytime. I find it amazing what corrections is automatically done with balltracking and keep head in the same place.