Is it safe to say that if your divots are consitantly in front of the ball, you're not flipping?

[SoundandFury]

Does the fact that you take takes ahead of the ball (and solid ball flight of course) mean you're achieving forward shaft lean at impact.  Or is it possible to hit down on the ball, take consistent divots, and still flip? I don't think it is (but I haven't had a chance to record a swing recently so it's hard to tell).

[TimG3394]

http://thesandtrap.com/t/53952/divots

[birlyshirly]

Depends on your definition of "flip". I think it's possible to shift your head and upper body forward, and still achieve a downwards AoA even though the clubshaft may have passed the line of your left arm.

[AmazingWhacker]

I'm not really sure what a "flip" is.  To me, a flip is when the clubhead  gets ahead of the shaft before full extension of your arms - even after impact.  On swings like this - full extention is not usually reached.  By this definition, it takes a lot of work not to flip and you can definitely have the divot out in front of the ball and still flip.  In fact, I do it all the time.

I think a lot of people think a flip only can happen before impact.  I'm not disagreeing with them - I might be using "flip" in the wrong sense.  I don't think you can have your hands behind the clubhead before impact and still take a nice looking divot, though.

The main thing is you can definitely have the divot out in front of the ball and still hit a crap shot - but it's way better than having the divot behind the ball, obviously.

[SoundandFury]

Originally Posted by AmazingWhacker

I'm not really sure what a "flip" is.  To me, a flip is when the clubhead  gets ahead of the shaft before full extension of your arms - even after impact.  On swings like this - full extention is not usually reached.  By this definition, it takes a lot of work not to flip and you can definitely have the divot out in front of the ball and still flip.  In fact, I do it all the time.

I think a lot of people think a flip only can happen before impact.  I'm not disagreeing with them - I might be using "flip" in the wrong sense.  I don't think you can have your hands behind the clubhead before impact and still take a nice looking divot, though.

The main thing is you can definitely have the divot out in front of the ball and still hit a crap shot - but it's way better than having the divot behind the ball, obviously.

i'm talking the kind of flip described by hands behind the club head at before impact.

[AmazingWhacker]

Originally Posted by SoundandFury

i'm talking the kind of flip described by hands behind the club head at before impact.

In that case I don't think it's likely you're flipping if the divots are consistently in front of the ball.

However - watch this famous slow motion video of Tiger - his clubhead pretty much never gets in front of the shaft . .at least not until he's well into his follow through.  That's my definition of not flipping.

Here is one of Anthony Kim not flipping

It's all about not stopping your rotation in the downswing.  Stop or slow down - and you flip . .

This video shows a very good golfer flipping after impact . .by my definition-  check out 0:50.

[mvmac]

You can have a bent left wrist, dorsi flexed, and still take a divot in front of the ball.  Lee Westwood is a good example.  Shaft still "leaning" forward because of how forward his left elbow is.  Couldn't find any good face on iron swings.

SoundandFury, you can get a little "flippy" and still hit the ball first, shaft might look close to vertical at impact.  Understand there will tend to be some inconsistency with those alignments, with contact and start lines.

[JetFan1983]

Yea, I flip and still take a divot after I hit the ball. Its annoying to see it on film, but I do it a lot.

I still have forward shaft lean but you can see my wrist beginning to cup and about 3-4 inches after impact, you can see my flying wedge is completely gone -- and not in a good "Bubba Watson/Fred Couples" kind of way. I try to feel a very firm left wrist when I practice, but that in of itself is tough to time as I often do it wrong and end up shutting the face, which results in a pull-draw for me. I still practice that though in the hope that I will one day get the feel right.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by mvmac

You can have a bent left wrist, dorsi flexed, and still take a divot in front of the ball.  Lee Westwood is a good example.  Shaft still "leaning" forward because of how forward his left elbow is.  Couldn't find any good face on iron swings.

SoundandFury, you can get a little "flippy" and still hit the ball first, shaft might look close to vertical at impact.  Understand there will tend to be some inconsistency with those alignments, with contact and start lines.

Wow.  That's a lot of golf balls!  (A lot of very pristine white range balls begging to be hit!)

[SoundandFury]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Yea, I flip and still take a divot after I hit the ball. Its annoying to see it on film, but I do it a lot.

I still have forward shaft lean but you can see my wrist beginning to cup and about 3-4 inches after impact, you can see my flying wedge is completely gone -- and not in a good "Bubba Watson/Fred Couples" kind of way. I try to feel a very firm left wrist when I practice, but that in of itself is tough to time as I often do it wrong and end up shutting the face, which results in a pull-draw for me. I still practice that though in the hope that I will one day get the feel right.

Do you still make good contact though?  I ask because I'm hitting the ball better than ever, and I've gained probably 10 yards per club now that I've learned how to take divots.  To be honest, even if i am still flipping a bit, i don't really care as long as the ball keeps flying as well as it is.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by SoundandFury

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Yea, I flip and still take a divot after I hit the ball. Its annoying to see it on film, but I do it a lot.

I still have forward shaft lean but you can see my wrist beginning to cup and about 3-4 inches after impact, you can see my flying wedge is completely gone -- and not in a good "Bubba Watson/Fred Couples" kind of way. I try to feel a very firm left wrist when I practice, but that in of itself is tough to time as I often do it wrong and end up shutting the face, which results in a pull-draw for me. I still practice that though in the hope that I will one day get the feel right.

Do you still make good contact though?  I ask because I'm hitting the ball better than ever, and I've gained probably 10 yards per club now that I've learned how to take divots.  To be honest, even if i am still flipping a bit, i don't really care as long as the ball keeps flying as well as it is.

Yea, I still make good contact. Most of the time. It's hard for me to fully understand the mechanical components of my flip, but it seems to me that it's just another timing related obstacle in my swing. If my rhythm is off, I can kick the sweet spot path out or in, the club face open or closed, and as a result, I have unwanted curvature or poor start lines on my shots.

Honestly, you would never know I flipped at the ball if you didn't have a slow motion camera on me. Contact sounds good, feels good, the divot is after the ball, and the ball goes plenty far. In the short term, I'm better off not even being aware of it as looking at it on film hurts my confidence. It's best to just keep the positive thoughts with what you're doing.

Edit: And just to make matters even more confusing, the flip itself isn't necessarily the cause of these issues, as other factors in the swing can and would contribute to the flipping motion to begin with. But for the sake of playing as best you can right now, today -- as I said above -- its best to not worry about any of this and just do your best with what you've got.

[SoundandFury]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Yea, I still make good contact. Most of the time. It's hard for me to fully understand the mechanical components of my flip, but it seems to me that it's just another timing related obstacle in my swing. If my rhythm is off, I can kick the sweet spot path out or in, the club face open or closed, and as a result, I have unwanted curvature or poor start lines on my shots.

Honestly, you would never know I flipped at the ball if you didn't have a slow motion camera on me. Contact sounds good, feels good, the divot is after the ball, and the ball goes plenty far. In the short term, I'm better off not even being aware of it as looking at it on film hurts my confidence. It's best to just keep the positive thoughts with what you're doing.

Edit: And just to make matters even more confusing, the flip itself isn't necessarily the cause of these issues, as other factors in the swing can and would contribute to the flipping motion to begin with. But for the sake of playing as best you can right now, today -- as I said above -- its best to not worry about any of this and just do your best with what you've got.

Agreed.  For me, the flip caused all manner of fat and chunked balls, with the occasional topped one thrown in there for good measure.  Like you said, the flip wasn't the cause, it was a symptom of something else.  For me it was an off plane swing, which itself was caused by a setup problem at address.  Small change, and all of a sudden i get a nice crack sound at impact and have no problem at all taking divots.  Well, most of the time.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by SoundandFury

Do you still make good contact though?  I ask because I'm hitting the ball better than ever, and I've gained probably 10 yards per club now that I've learned how to take divots.  To be honest, even if i am still flipping a bit, i don't really care as long as the ball keeps flying as well as it is.

Clubs are designed to be hit with the handle forward, so you're probably doing a decent job.  Keep it up!