Topped every shot at the range yesterday

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by LI Hacker

Maybe I am naive but having never had a lesson before I am not sure if I know what to look for. I did some research and think I found an instructor with some positive reviews (Bob Posillico at Eisenhower Park) but I guess its still a roll of the dice.

A quick google search did not yield positive results for Bob Posillico in my opinion. But, I could easily be wrong about this because I'm working with minimal information here.

He does an interview where he says it's all about feel. That could be a great thing or a red flag.

In his bio it says he's a great club fitter. If he uses Trackman or Flightscope regularly then that is a huge positive for him as a teacher.

But also, you have to pay extra at the place he teaches to get video analysis. That's a red flag. One of the first things he should do is film your swing, regardless of your ability level.

On the website for the place he teaches, it says that video analysis is not recommended for beginner players. I see that as a red flag as well.

A good teacher doesn't need a camera to spot the faults of a high handicapper, but a good teacher does need a camera to show the student what he is doing wrong and that feel is not real. Then when he implements a change, he can show the student at the end of the lesson that the picture in the video has improved. It's very important for the teacher to use a camera to show these changes.

When the student realizes that what he "feels" he is doing, in fact, isn't what he is actually doing, he can learn what he is supposed to feel in order to make a better golf swing. The camera is critical for this.

[Neitmrh15]

I find that I top the ball if I swing forward too quickly, like I'm trying to crush the ball. This tends to happen more if I get frustrated. I also find that being hungry or dehydrated at all can throw your game off and make you sloppy.

[midwestswing]

Couple more things to consider...

Ball flight will tell you anything you need to know about your swing. Find an instructor to give you a lesson on the range, not on some trackman or video. In my personal opinion, unless you are getting custom fitted for clubs, the trackman is completely useless. Let's face it, 99% of the golfers you will ever talk to or play with, do not have consistent enough swings to worry about launch angles or spin rates. I know people like to think it matters, but that's the same guys who hits one right off the first tee, fats hits approach, thins his chip, and three putts for a double. I have played with these guys thousands of times.

Here is the reason I feel so many players that take a lesson, never go back. An instructors groundwork for a repeatable swing, is fundamentals. Period. When a golfer goes to a lesson, they don't want to hear about fundamentals. They are thinking that the pro is going to give them some tip that will cure all their problems. That is why I recommended working on your grip, posture, and alignment before getting a lesson. This way you don't have to spend the first couple lessons or the first couple hundred bucks, working on stuff you could have mastered at home by yourself. Best of luck!

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by midwestswing

Couple more things to consider...

Ball flight will tell you anything you need to know about your swing. Find an instructor to give you a lesson on the range, not on some trackman or video. In my personal opinion, unless you are getting custom fitted for clubs, the trackman is completely useless. Let's face it, 99% of the golfers you will ever talk to or play with, do not have consistent enough swings to worry about launch angles or spin rates. I know people like to think it matters, but that's the same guys who hits one right off the first tee, fats hits approach, thins his chip, and three putts for a double. I have played with these guys thousands of times.

Here is the reason I feel so many players that take a lesson, never go back. An instructors groundwork for a repeatable swing, is fundamentals. Period. When a golfer goes to a lesson, they don't want to hear about fundamentals. They are thinking that the pro is going to give them some tip that will cure all their problems. That is why I recommended working on your grip, posture, and alignment before getting a lesson. This way you don't have to spend the first couple lessons or the first couple hundred bucks, working on stuff you could have mastered at home by yourself. Best of luck!

I agree, the first few lessons are usually so called, "Fundamentals", though a go pro would recognize if the grip was at fault instead of trying to change something that doesn't need changed.

But, if you want to practice the grip, buy a cheap golf club and get yourself a marker. Mark down on the glove were you want the club to lay on your fingers, then just grip using that for a while, over and over till it becomes natural.

As for alignment, hardware store and buy some dowels. Lay them down in a cross shape, so you can tell were your putting the ball. A lot of amateurs put the ball way to far back in your stance. Unless you shorten your stance, or hit a low shot, the ball will rarely go behind the center of your stance.

Posture, take a good look at the stuff on this forum. Great stuff about how keeping your back straight, and looking at the ball out of the bottom of your eyes, and arching your back is bad for the swing.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by midwestswing

Couple more things to consider...

Ball flight will tell you anything you need to know about your swing. Find an instructor to give you a lesson on the range, not on some trackman or video. In my personal opinion, unless you are getting custom fitted for clubs, the trackman is completely useless. Let's face it, 99% of the golfers you will ever talk to or play with, do not have consistent enough swings to worry about launch angles or spin rates. I know people like to think it matters, but that's the same guys who hits one right off the first tee, fats hits approach, thins his chip, and three putts for a double. I have played with these guys thousands of times.

Here is the reason I feel so many players that take a lesson, never go back. An instructors groundwork for a repeatable swing, is fundamentals. Period. When a golfer goes to a lesson, they don't want to hear about fundamentals. They are thinking that the pro is going to give them some tip that will cure all their problems. That is why I recommended working on your grip, posture, and alignment before getting a lesson. This way you don't have to spend the first couple lessons or the first couple hundred bucks, working on stuff you could have mastered at home by yourself. Best of luck!

Hmmmm, Trackman is completely useless and find an instructor who doesn't use video.... good one. Dead wrong, but funny.

Yea, Trackman isn't necessary to help someone who tops the ball (nor is it likely necessary at all) but it's a good sign if a prospective instructor has access to it. It certainly doesn't mean the instructor is a superstar if he has one, but it's a good sign.

And a good instructor won't bog a student down, especially a player fairly new to the game, with excess technical jargon that will fly over his head. But if you do have a simple understanding of some of the basic numbers, it's fun to see those improve.

Video, on the other hand, is very important to helping anyone make changes and is fundamental to good golf instruction. Like I said above, a good instructor might not need video to spot a problem, but he would greatly benefit from it because he can show his student their changes and that feel is not real.

But if you yourself don't want to use video at all then that's your decision, which I would respect. However, would you really balk at a teacher who asks you "hey, I won't show you what I see, but would you mind if I filmed your swing to see if I can spot something important? You're a 2-handicap and it becomes harder to spot problems at your level, and it would help me out to see everything in slow motion. Again, I won't show you if you don't want to see it, but as I said, it would really help me out to slow things down. My naked eye is only so good."

[midwestswing]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Hmmmm, Trackman is completely useless and find an instructor who doesn't use video.... good one. Dead wrong, but funny.

Yea, Trackman isn't necessary to help someone who tops the ball (nor is it likely necessary at all) but it's a good sign if a prospective instructor has access to it. It certainly doesn't mean the instructor is a superstar if he has one, but it's a good sign.

And a good instructor won't bog a student down, especially a player fairly new to the game, with excess technical jargon that will fly over his head. But if you do have a simple understanding of some of the basic numbers, it's fun to see those improve.

Video, on the other hand, is very important to helping anyone make changes and is fundamental to good golf instruction. Like I said above, a good instructor might not need video to spot a problem, but he would greatly benefit from it because he can show his student their changes and that feel is not real.

But if you yourself don't want to use video at all then that's your decision, which I would respect. However, would you really balk at a teacher who asks you "hey, I won't show you what I see, but would you mind if I filmed your swing to see if I can spot something important? You're a 2-handicap and it becomes harder to spot problems at your level, and it would help me out to see everything in slow motion. Again, I won't show you if you don't want to see it, but as I said, it would really help me out to slow things down. My naked eye is only so good."

First, I said unless you are getting custom fit for clubs it is useless. (You said yourself it's not likely necessary at all)

Second, video can be a good tool, but I wouldn't actively seek out someone who uses it just based on that. (Let's face it, people have been looking at Ben Hogans swing for over a half century and can't figure out a way to repeat his action. This leads me to believe if you can't figure out what works in a swing, why is it so easy to figure out what doesn't just by watching tape?)

Third, if my teacher wanted to film me swing, I would think he finally lost his ability to read ball flight patterns. (Doesn't matter whether I am a two or a twenty, the ball doesn't care and reacts because of science, not because the ball thinks I'm good.)

Fourth, you have no idea what level my swing is at. I could have a 10 handicap long game and tour pro short game for all you know.

I'm not trying to fight with you or tell you your way is wrong. All I am saying is that a lot of histories great teachers were able to do so without video. I actually think you show insecurity in your ability to dissect a swing by asking if you can put it on video. In my opinion, anyone with knowledge of the golf swing could analyze a video in slow motion. Just because you can watch a movie, doesn't mean you can act!

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by LI Hacker

My question is what are some drills to work on the plane specifically, I have read a lot about getting the club over your right shoulder it just doesn't feel natural and I have to work to get it there. I was having issues getting my left arm even to my shoulders but even after correcting that the club looked too flat.

Also maybe I'm completely wrong so any other advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Do a bunch of these drills

http://thesandtrap.com/t/61376/5sk-video-thread/90#post_836200

[JetFan1983]

We've gotten off-topic, but I'll post a response and hope that's kosher.

Originally Posted by midwestswing

First, I said unless you are getting custom fit for clubs it is useless. (You said yourself it's not likely necessary at all)

It isn't useless when deciding who your instructor is. A teacher who owns or has access to Trackman is a potential green flag in my opinion. It means he probably understands the ball flight laws, which is a huge plus, and that he has a respect for using technology to improve both himself as a teacher and his students' golf swings. Also, it's fun to hit off one!

Originally Posted by midwestswing

Second, video can be a good tool, but I wouldn't actively seek out someone who uses it just based on that. (Let's face it, people have been looking at Ben Hogans swing for over a half century and can't figure out a way to repeat his action.

Good instructors already know what the good aspects are of Ben Hogan's swing. An instructor can use certain movements in his swing as examples to their students of fundamental aspects to a good golf swing. His hip slide comes to mind here.

Also, a good teacher wouldn't begin to try to turn a student into Ben Hogan or any great player from the past or present. Nor would any good teacher try to adopt Hogan's swing as his own. Not only would that be an obvious fool's errand, but Hogan spent all the live long day practicing to get there, and no non-touring professional has that kind of time.

Originally Posted by midwestswing

This leads me to believe if you can't figure out what works in a swing, why is it so easy to figure out what doesn't just by watching tape?)

Not all teachers who use video know what they're doing. Most don't. It's very important to realize this. But the ones who do, do it very well and in an efficient way.

Originally Posted by midwestswing

Third, if my teacher wanted to film me swing, I would think he finally lost his ability to read ball flight patterns.

Then you need to re-think how you view video analysis. Yes, ball flight will tell a person a basic path to face angle relationship, but it won't get into specifics about a person's mechanics. The golf swing's flaws become harder and harder to detect the better the player gets when only using the naked eye, but also, using video is instrumental in showing a golfer where his mistake is very specifically. When used in the right hands, juxtaposing the student's swing with varying examples of better players exhibiting the desired new movement can be worth a thousand words when seen with one's own eyes.

As I said though, most teachers who use video don't know how to use it, so I understand trepidation. Those who do however know how important and effective it is.

Originally Posted by midwestswing

(Doesn't matter whether I am a two or a twenty, the ball doesn't care and reacts because of science, not because the ball thinks I'm good.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by midwestswing

Fourth, you have no idea what level my swing is at. I could have a 10 handicap long game and tour pro short game for all you know.

Again, I agree. And if that was the case, a good teacher might not need video to spot the flaw. But as I've said repeatedly, it is very useful in clearly showing the student what is wrong.

Feel isn't real, and its important for the golfer to understand whether or not what he is feeling is actually changing his swing for the better or at all. Video confirms or disconfirms this.

Originally Posted by midwestswing

All I am saying is that a lot of histories great teachers were able to do so without video.

What good instructors know now compared to those days has astronomically improved in the last five or ten years. I'm not saying we couldn't learn something from those great teachers of the past, but they would be at an unfair disadvantage to the good teachers of today when, at the very least, spotting mechanical flaws of today's golfer.

Originally Posted by midwestswing

I actually think you show insecurity in your ability to dissect a swing by asking if you can put it on video.

Why? To me it shows a humble acceptance that the naked eye cannot see everything one might need to see in order to help a golfer who swings faster than 100 mph. A good instructor uses video quickly and effectively. He films the student from face-on and down-the-line, sees what he needs to see, and can then offer his student the important priority solution to his problem. Then he can quickly show the student the swing itself, and if necessary, compare that flaw with the flaws of others, thereby showing him that this flaw is a common one. He can also show that flaw compared with a host of good players making the correct movement, so again, the student can see that the solution is a fundamental one.

Originally Posted by midwestswing

In my opinion, anyone with knowledge of the golf swing could analyze a video in slow motion.

There are a lot of people out there who have some level of knowledge about the golf swing, but no, they cannot effectively analyze a swing video in slow motion. Peter Kostis and Hank Haney have knowledge about golf, but cannot effectively analyze a student's priority piece.

Originally Posted by midwestswing

Just because you can watch a movie, doesn't mean you can act!

Right. No one can just film a golf swing, watch it in slow motion, pick out the biggest flaw and then have the best remedy to suggest. Good golf instructors are few and far between. But your statement here implies that some instructors can do this, as some people who do watch movies can also act. Yes, there are instructors out there who are absolutely excellent at using slow motion video to help their students, whether they're a 30-index or a +4.

[Blueman]

Originally Posted by midwestswing

, but that's the same guys who hits one right off the first tee, fats hits approach, thins his chip, and three putts for a double. I have played with these guys thousands of times.

Have  played a round with you ?

[pgawest]

I used to be a topper. You know that old saying "keep your head down?" Well, it doesn't work. But if you concentrate on keeping your head down AFTER the shot, you might stop topping. Your club might be coming up too soon after the shot. I think about the space an inch in front of the ball and try to stay down on it for that extra split second. Try it, what have you got to lose.

[LI Hacker]

just as an update, I was able to get out on the range and the course this past weekend and really worked on getting my weight forward and this helped tremendously not only in reducing the number of fat/thin shots but also my ball striking and distance.

Makes sense since on the swings where I had it all working, I was able to get my swing to bottom out after the ball as opposed to my normal 2-3 inches behind the ball as evidenced by my divots. On those shots I was finally having that feeling of the ball just rocketing off the club face and was hitting nice draws which is a first for me, was a big time slicer.

Getting my weight onto my front leg and getting the lower half moving toward the target will definitely be my swing thought and my point of focus for my next few practice sessions until its second nature. Was one of those things I knew I should have been doing but just couldn't get it down until this weekend.

[rb224315]

I've played a lot of bad golf over the years but feel like I've made a discovery which will lead to improvement this year.  Take my ramblings for what they're worth; hopefully something in my experience will translate to your enjoyment of the game.

My humble opinion:  First ensure that your setup, grip, posture, etc. are all ok.  Very few, if any, of these will cause huge problems if you're off by 1/4" here or there.  For example, I don't believe that a person will go from topping every shot to hitting 80% good shots by moving the ball one direction or another by some small amount.

You'll have a much better chance of doing the things mentioned upthread (weight forward, head down, bottoming out in the right place, etc.) if the arms are properly connected with the body.  "Connected" means not just that your arms are attached to your body at the shoulders (which I hope was already obvious!) but that in the dynamic motion of the swing, the force which moves the club is produced by the body, not with the hands and arms.  The body is not just a platform or foundation from which the arms and hands impart movement to the club, it is also the engine which produces great (and effortless) power.

When this idea was stewing in my mind, I imagined my hands being suspended from my shoulders by rods instead of muscle and bone.  In this case, the muscles of the hands and arms could not help or hinder the swing.  My new "arms" would just keep the club attached to my body.  The next thought is "how would I make the club move from the top of the backswing if I had no arm muscles?"  Gravity is a factor, of course, but that alone won't generate power.  The obvious answer is that I'd have to use my body to turn my shoulders to make my new arms move, and the muscle-less arms would simply keep the club attached to me.  Centrifugal force would cause the wrists to unhinge and present the clubhead to the ball at the correct moment in time.

To clarify, I'm not saying that the muscles of the arms and hands have no role in the swing.  The thought I just described is just a way of imagining how force is generated by the body and applied to the club. I believe that for most high-handicappers the missing link is understanding how to use the body to move the arms, which in turn move the club.

[Topper]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

A good teacher doesn't need a camera to spot the faults of a high handicapper, but a good teacher does need a camera to show the student what he is doing wrong and that feel is not real.

This is an excellent statement.  I took a couple of video lessons last year. It was amazing to me how different my swing looked relative to how I felt my swing was.  It took several trips between the tee box and the camera to connect a certain position with a specific feel on my end.  And I much prefer to see actual ball flight by taking lessons at a range.

The fact that "Feel is not Real" contributes to the difficulty of golf.

[rb224315]

Originally Posted by Topper

The fact that "Feel is not Real" contributes to the difficulty of golf.

I don't think I understand this.  What is meant by saying "feel is not real"?  Does it mean that there's no such thing as a "feel player" or does it mean that there is often a disconnect between what a player thinks he feels in his swing vs. what is actually happening?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by rb224315

I don't think I understand this.  What is meant by saying "feel is not real"?  Does it mean that there's no such thing as a "feel player" or does it mean that there is often a disconnect between what a player thinks he feels in his swing vs. what is actually happening?

Second one.  Ever try to fix something in your swing where it felt much different but then looked on the camera and only slightly changed or didn't change at all?  That's feel isn't real.  All golfers are "feel" players.