Holding Greens

[sofingaw]

Hello all. I had a pretty good round by my standards today. A couple things frustrated me, but mostly were my fault. One frustration that I would like some insight on is: How can I hold more greens once I hit them? Here's the deal. I'm a high handicapper. Real high for now. And I play low spin balls to keep straight off the tee and with irons. I never usually hit many greens on approaches from beyond wedge distance, but today I hit SEVERAL. The ball rolled off all of them but maybe 2. Probably 4-5 roll-offs! 2 roll-offs from 90 on the fairway with a SW. Extremely frustrating when I hit greens, even with high shots, and roll off. Any strategies for holding more greens without going to high spin balls? Thanks for any input!

[MeytonPanning]

What kind of condition are these greens in?

[sofingaw]

Definitely faster and firmer than I am used to. I'm used to furry shag carpet greens with sand, however. My honest assessment, based on comparing the greens I usually play, (goat track shag carpet) to those at Doral, which I played a month or two ago... These are fair, even, medium quick greens. Probably what most courses should aspire to.

[newtogolf]

Sounds like you hit the approach shots a bit thin.  Regardless of the ball I'm using, I can hit my sand wedge or even gap wedge so the ball comes in from such a high angle it's dropping almost straight down and I get very little roll out.

I'm assuming the greens were relatively flat and you just weren't hitting a ridge that caused the ball to roll down and off the green.

[sofingaw]

Very possible. I do pick the ball a lot. Rarely leave a divot. So I do hit thin shots often. Also, greens were mostly flat, yes. But a few of these shots were REAL high. To the point that I was literally shocked that 2 of them rolled off. Could just be 'golf', in the end, eh? I may have simply been unlucky this first time hitting lots of greens.. I'll just keep trying to hit greens. Eventually, it'll pay off! :)

[RayG]

It they were THAT high and still rolled off, then either: it wasn't high enough, OR not enough spin on the ball. If the rolloffs were downwind, then that's the way the ball behaves downwind. The first few greens should also clue you in to what the course is doing. If you are basing your shots on the number to the flagstick, then you need to adjust your distance to reflect the lack of stopping. play to the front edge to give a chance for the ball to release to the flag. If the course has a GOOD practice green that reflects actual conditions, you can toss a few by hand and get a bead on what's in store as well. Don't just roll a few to check speed. As for using a distance ball to gain a few yards in the fairway, there are options that will allow a bit more spin and softer feel. A few brands have a 3 piece design with a soft urethane cover. A compromise to be sure, but it could add enough spin to cut down on the excess roll out on the greens. Otherwise, tell the management to water more to soften them up!

[sofingaw]

You know, at least a couple of them were downwind! I think that may have been one factor that I didn't consider. I considered the wind with regard to distance overall.. But not to include roll with irons/wedges. And I was playing to the flag, mostly! Learning! Thanks to both of you for the input!

[LuciusWooding]

-You say you hit the ball high, but you'd be shocked how high tour players hit the ball in real life. And how much hangtime you can get on a crushed iron shot whether it's a 3 or a 9 when you hit it pure with a really high swing speed. Have a buddy hold a stopwatch when you hit balls, and see if you can get one to stay in the air for 6 seconds or more without flipping. The longest hitters are capable of 8 seconds or more if they want. I doubt most amateurs can routinely beat 4 seconds without a driver. This hangtime is a combination of high initial launch and spin and it gives the ball time to flatten out and drop steeply from 90+ feet where a low shot, even with high ball speed, will come down too shallow and roll until it exhausts its energy. Hence why Tiger can hit an 8 iron with the ball speed of an amateur's driver but get it to stick within a yard where the driver would roll 20 yards. That's also why he can pick up his tee and get Joe to clean his club and get it in the ball before his ball lands. If the average player tried that he'd hurt himself.

-The landing spot makes a huge difference as well, landing it on a downslope requires Hoganesque control to stop it. Hitting into a backstop, you can hit them pretty thin. Greens that are shaded by trees sometimes play soft, while exposed greens that get lots of wind usually play like cement.

-Conditions matter, as does your initial lie. If the greens are soft or hard, or the wind is blowing, or there's an elevation change or a slope, it will have a major effect. If your lie is perfect you can get much more spin than from the rough or whatever, especially off the tee. If you know what a flyer lie looks like, where the grass is mowed and laying in the direction of the green, usually I take 2-3 fewer clubs and try to smash it. You may be getting this effect with shorter grass in the first cut perhaps?

-If you play a low spin ball, and don't get the ball high, it won't stick unless the greens are pudding. If you play a low spin ball but launch it pure and to the moon, it will basically stop within a couple yards on a flat green. If you play a urethane ball, it will stick much better but not without some favorable conditions.

-I play on bent grass, you probably play on bermuda which has its own peculiarities. It may behave differently, especially around the greens than other types.

I suggest you learn some partial shots to use specifically on approaches, as a shot with a controlled release is very versatile. Don't be trying to stick them to the greens so hard every time, just get really good contact and play the right yardage.

[kcarile]

Totally agree with Lucius wooding. He is right about the tour players and how high you actually hit the ball

[sofingaw]

Some good points for sure. I've seen some pro tourneys in person, and they definitely hit the ball VERY high when they want to. Most especially with the long clubs and driver, relative to us ams. But what is killing me is that the one shot I see in my mind most clearly from today was WAY up there. I hit it high with my SGI irons, and this was higher than normal for sure. EASILY 5 seconds or more of hang time (from the first cut of rough, true) and it looked to come straight down, 3-6 feet past the pin.. But just kept moving!!! I think the ball, the wind, the limited amount of green behind the pin, and bad ju ju played a part today. I will investigate this further, and pay attention to shot height. Thanks for chiming in, all!

[AmazingWhacker]

Your first post reminds me a lot of me - for the first 3 years of playing I struggled to hold greens and, probably in the 3rd year, I would say it was one of main things keeping my scores high.  The last year, though - I have improved my striking a lot.  When I was striking it (more) poorly, I noticed that my ball generally had a trajectory that looked like a throw - ie - if I had thrown the ball.  Even if it went high, it still had that look wheras my buddy's shot would start low and climb really high and then drop almost straight down.

This year I have finally started to hit my irons like that.  My divots are now well ahead of the ball (although I don't necessarily think you have to take big divots to hit it properly) and, if I hit the green, it often sticks there - and that is with low-end, low-spin golf balls.  I now realize that In the past, if I hit it high, it was because I flipped or casted at the ball and happened to catch it on the upswing a bit - and maybe with a bit of an open clubface as well.

If you can, see a golf pro and get a diagnosis - that was really helpfull for me.  Even if your issue is totally different and unrelated, it would still probably be worthwile and helpfull.