What do you need to play par?

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

17 puts (1.88/hole) not good?

CUT THE CRAP!!!

I'm a beginner, not a Tour-player!!!!

You should learn to see things in perspective instead of trying to demoralize people!

Most beginners (and even many who've been playing for years) average way over 2 puts/hole!

I believe that what he is telling you is that, when you're missing a lot of GIR your putting should theoretically be really low because the shot that gets you on the green is likely a chip or bump'n'run or something and you should be getting it MUCH closer to the hole than you typically would from, say, 120-150 yards out. In that scenario you should be making a lot of one putts and when you do need to putt twice it's kind of equivalent to a three putt because you SHOULD have made the first putt.

Most people will find that the better they strike their irons the more putts they need simply because their first putts are typically farther away than if they had missed the green and had an opportunity to stick it relatively close with little chip shot or short pitch.

At least that has been my experience, the better I strike the ball the more my putting average inflates.

Or maybe he's just saying you suck, he can be a little grouchy.

[pipergsm]

I know I suck at certain aspects of the game, but still...

The way he expresses himself is not worthy of a teacher (instructor) towards a beginner.

my first put is almost never from within 6 feet.

If that were the case, my average would be more like 1.6/hole

It's more likely to be anywhere from 9 to 30 feet.

No matter how you look at it, especially for a beginner, 1.88/hole is NOT a bad result, as he's clearly implying.

[TourSpoon]

Piper, I have to give you credit for bearing your soul on the net. Phil can be cantankerous but he is consistent and usually right. Everyone starts somewhere so you have only one way to go and it seems that you are getting an education here.

[pipergsm]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Piper, I have to give you credit for bearing your soul on the net. Phil can be cantankerous but he is consistent and usually right. Everyone starts somewhere so you have only one way to go and it seems that you are getting an education here.

Not quite sure how you mean this.

Anyway, I'm aware I have to learn many things, and believe me when I say I'm very willing to learn.

What I write can sometimes give the impression that I'm someone who "thinks he knows it all", but believe me, that's not the case.

However, telling a beginner that his putting (1.88/hole) is not good at all, because it's not at the level of a scratch/tour player is, in my opinion, not worthy of a teacher/instructor.

[Phil McGleno]

Sorry I tell the truth. If you are missing as many greens as you are then 17 putts per round is not good. Even if your short game is terrible and you are leaving yourself 15 feet on every green that means you are making 1 of 9 of those putts and that is not good- I understand youre new but yelling CUT THE CRAP is childish and stupid and not helping you become a better golfer. 1.88 putts per green is very bad. Its a huge gap between PGA Tour players who hit 10to14 greens per round and are often putting from an average of 30 feet away or more. You need some humble pie and Im cranky enough and have coached enough people to give it to you without flinching one bit. You suck and you tell people how to play scratch golf and yet Im the one with the lousy attitude? :~(

[indyvai]

Sorry I tell the truth. If you are missing as many greens as you are then 17 putts per round is not good. Even if your short game is terrible and you are leaving yourself 15 feet on every green that means you are making 1 of 9 of those putts and that is not good- I understand youre new but yelling CUT THE CRAP is childish and stupid and not helping you become a better golfer. 1.88 putts per green is very bad. Its a huge gap between PGA Tour players who hit 10to14 greens per round and are often putting from an average of 30 feet away or more. You need some humble pie and Im cranky enough and have coached enough people to give it to you without flinching one bit. You suck and you tell people how to play scratch golf and yet Im the one with the lousy attitude? :~(

Way to candy coat it!

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

Sorry I tell the truth. If you are missing as many greens as you are then 17 putts per round is not good. Even if your short game is terrible and you are leaving yourself 15 feet on every green that means you are making 1 of 9 of those putts and that is not good-

I understand youre new but yelling CUT THE CRAP is childish and stupid and not helping you become a better golfer. 1.88 putts per green is very bad. Its a huge gap between PGA Tour players who hit 10to14 greens per round and are often putting from an average of 30 feet away or more. You need some humble pie and Im cranky enough and have coached enough people to give it to you without flinching one bit. You suck and you tell people how to play scratch golf and yet Im the one with the lousy attitude?

This is why I like Phil. When you put it out there on the internet, someone shows up with both barrels. You may not like it, but he calls it like he sees it.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by France46

What you originally wrote is close, but not 100% accurate in all cases as you have to factor in SLOPE in most handicap systems.  You would be correct if the slope was exactly 113 but the differential goes down as the slope goes up (and vice versa)

Roughly, if you shot an ESC adjusted 81 with a course rating of 71, your differential would be about 9 if the slope was 124 and about 11 if the slope was 102.The handicap index is then calculated using the average of the best 10 differentials of the player's past 20 total rounds, multiplied by 0.96.

Interesting, I never knew this.  Looking at my past differentials never really gave this away, but maybe I didn't look at it closely enough.

Originally Posted by pipergsm

17 puts (1.88/hole) not good?

CUT THE CRAP!!!

I'm a beginner, not a Tour-player!!!!

You should learn to see things in perspective instead of trying to demoralize people!

Most beginners (and even many who've been playing for years) average way over 2 puts/hole!

It's not good if you aren't hitting a lot of greens.  And averaging over 2 putts per hole would be horrendous.  The funny thing about putting statistics is that sometimes, the worse you play, the better your putting stats may look.  In fact, in tournament golf with my club, players that are having crappy rounds (compared to their handicap) tend to then focus on winning the "least putts" award.  They aren't striking the ball well that day, missing a lot of greens, so they focus on giving themselves a lot of 1-putt opportunities.  Sometimes, not all the time, scoring and putting are inversely proportional.

Originally Posted by pipergsm

WRONG!

I'm not trying to say golf is easy, just that most amateur golfers could be playing much better if they would really focus on improving consistency, accuracy and course management.

[pipergsm]

That's right!

Tour pro's make 10 to 14 puts per round?

10 = 1.11/hole and 14 putts on 9 holes is just over 1.5/hole, right?

That's funny! When I check the statistics on the PGA-site, I can't find too many players averaging under 1.5!

And even so, comparing a beginner to Tour pro's is ridiculous.

You're insinuating I should be able to sink 25% or more of the puts from 15 feet?

That's about the level for tour-players, if the stats on the PGA site are correct!

You can't expect a beginner to put like that, and so we're back to "seeing things in the right perspective".

If beginners would putt the way you insinuate they should be able to, they would be low handicappers in a matter of months!

I've played with many 10 to 18 handicappers (hardly beginners, are they?), and I hardly ever see them putt from 15 feet.

So I repeat, and nothing will change my mind on that: a beginner, putting at 1.88/hole, is putting rather good, all things placed in perspective!

And what you're saying about it, in my opinion, is meant to ridiculise and demoralize, and not worthy of a teacher.

I may not know much about golf, but I do know about teaching!

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

Do I need to show you some stats from the PGA players about their putting?

Only the very best putters average 1.5 to 1.6 putts/hole, and plenty are closer to 1.8 !!!

If you putted on those greens, you'd have 56 putts for each 9 holes. At least.

Not trying to insult you, but 17 putts on a course that I'm assuming doesn't have a lot of break, and rolls slow, isn't spectacular. It's good that you're not 3 or 4 putting everything, but I aim for at least 3 or 4 one-putts, and no three-putts. Which would be a 14 or a 15. Especially when you're not hitting a lot of greens. And I'm not a good golfer.

Don't get so defensive, there are a lot of smart people here, who are a lot better at golf than you and I. Try to humble yourself a little.

[pipergsm]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

If you putted on those greens, you'd have 56 putts for each 9 holes. At least.

Not trying to insult you, but 17 putts on a course that I'm assuming doesn't have a lot of break, and rolls slow, isn't spectacular. It's good that you're not 3 or 4 putting everything, but I aim for at least 3 or 4 one-putts, and no three-putts. Which would be a 14 or a 15. Especially when you're not hitting a lot of greens. And I'm not a good golfer.

Don't get so defensive, there are a lot of smart people here, who are a lot better at golf than you and I. Try to humble yourself a little.

Don't be mistaken.

The greens here are not slow and most of them have break.

And when my approach shots land somewhat decent, I do put 14 or 15.

But most of the time, my first put is from outside 12 feet.

And I do, from time to time, sink 30-footers with a break-lie, so I don't think I put that bad.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

Don't be mistaken.

The greens here are not slow and most of them have break.

And when my approach shots land somewhat decent, I do put 14 or 15.

But most of the time, my first put is from outside 12 feet.

And I do, from time to time, sink 30-footers with a break-lie, so I don't think I put that bad.

Ok, first things first. There are two 't's in putt. lol

Seriously though, I can almost guarantee they are slow and have virtually no break in comparison to the greens the pros are playing on. That's not to say that they have no break, or aren't faster than some other ones...but in comparison. Play on some pro level greens and you'll be sweating some 2-3 foot putts. Big time. There's no doubt that I could easily 3 putt from 5 feet on some of them.

And if you're outside of 12 feet, you probably need to work on your wedges...because with your scoring, I'm sure you pitch or chip up from just off the green a lot, just like me. You should be getting those shots withing 8 feet.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

Tour pro's make 10 to 14 puts per round?

10 = 1.11/hole and 14 putts on 9 holes is just over 1.5/hole, right?

That's funny! When I check the statistics on the PGA-site, I can't find too many players averaging under 1.5!

You didn't read what he wrote. He said they hit 10-14 greens in regulation per round, so they take a lot of their first putts from 30+ feet. The average distance of their first putts are over 30 feet, and yet they still average 27-30 putts per round (30 is 1.67 putts per green). You're averaging 34 putts despite having a MUCH shorter "first putt" distance. Even if your short game was TERRIBLE and your average length of your first putt was 15 feet, you're still bad.

Originally Posted by pipergsm

You're insinuating I should be able to sink 25% or more of the puts from 15 feet?

He didn't say that.

You really need to step up your reading comprehension. He said if your AVERAGE first putt distance is 15 feet, you should make more than 1 out of 9. You should. Even as a beginner. Average does not mean "every putt is 15 feet."

Originally Posted by pipergsm

The result was horrible, I finished at 56 for the 9 holes.

My putting is rather good, averaging about 17 per round of 9 holes (recently had 14 and 15, but usually 17-18).

So you played nine holes. You took 17 putts. That leaves 39 shots - or an average of over four shots - just to get onto the green. Again, your short game is one of the worst in the world and you can't get inside fifteen feet from just off the green to save your life, OR your putting is not "rather good," OR both are true.

Originally Posted by pipergsm

So I repeat, and nothing will change my mind on that: a beginner, putting at 1.88/hole, is putting rather good, all things placed in perspective!

And what you're saying about it, in my opinion, is meant to ridiculise and demoralize, and not worthy of a teacher.

I may not know much about golf, but I do know about teaching!

Piper, Patrick, whoever you are: you've yet to demonstrate that you know anything about teaching anything.

Maybe you should teach yourself putting. Because it is not "rather good" at all.

Originally Posted by pipergsm

My putting is rather good, averaging about 17 per round of 9 holes (recently had 14 and 15, but usually 17-18).

P.S. I've never done it before but I'm close to restricting Piper from his own thread. It's been a folly from the outset.

[pipergsm]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Ok, first things first. There are two 't's in putt. lol

Seriously though, I can almost guarantee they are slow and have virtually no break in comparison to the greens the pros are playing on. That's not to say that they have no break, or aren't faster than some other ones...but in comparison. Play on some pro level greens and you'll be sweating some 2-3 foot putts. Big time. There's no doubt that I could easily 3 putt from 5 feet on some of them.

And if you're outside of 12 feet, you probably need to work on your wedges...because with your scoring, I'm sure you pitch or chip up from just off the green a lot, just like me. You should be getting those shots withing 8 feet.

OK, I'll take your word for it, since I've never played on a pro-level course.

About my wedges: I know. I should be able to get the ball within 8 feet, shooting from within 30-40 yards, and during practice I usually can (make that 6-12 feet shooting from 40 yards)!

But when actually playing on the course, quite often things go wrong when I need to chip

i.e.: the fringe where the ball lies is much thicker/harder than I expected and my wedge blocks, causing a complete mishit, or for some reason my arms refuse to follow through at impact (same result), etc...

It's all in the transfer range - course

It's getting better now, but I still have some way to go, LOL!

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

OK, I'll take your word for it, since I've never played on a pro-level course.

Definitely take my word for it. Tiger woods would hit 25 footers on your course without breaking a sweat. He would probably have 20 putts in an entire round there. If that.

And again, if I'm within 15 feet, I feel like I have a 1/3 chance of hitting it. So let's say I have 3 from inside 15, 3 from inside 8, and 3 from 30...I expect myself to have 14-15 putts.

[pipergsm]

IACAS, thanks for correcting my miss-reading of the text, I apologize.

If 1 out of 9 (11%) is really bad, then surely, in order for it to be good, it should at least be double, no? That makes 2 out of 9 (22%, not much under 25%.)

My first putt is rarely from within 12 feet, so I guess the average is more than 15 feet.

Yes, my short game (approach) sucks!  I'm working on it, especially the transfer from range to course is causing me troubles.

If my putting is really that bad, than I guess American golfers are all super-putters, since most golfers I've seen playing here (Thailand) rarely 1-putt from 15 feet, not even 1 out of 9!

I have played with several 10 to 16 handicappers. They rarely putt lower than 16 per round and definitely don't putt 2 out of 9 from 15 feet!

And as far as teaching is concerned: I don't know how teaching is done in the US, but one of the basic principles of teaching in Europe is that you don't "stimulate" a student by only emphasizing on, and even exaggerating, what is negative in his results and comparing his results with those of much more evolved/experienced players.

Placing things in the right perspective is essential.

I don't have to "demonstrate" anything.

I grew up among teachers, and have been teaching music and languages for many years, successfully.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

If my putting is really that bad, than I guess American golfers are all super-putters, since most golfers I've seen playing here (Thailand) rarely 1-putt from 15 feet, not even 1 out of 9!

I have played with several 10 to 16 handicappers. They rarely putt lower than 16 per round and definitely don't putt 2 out of 9 from 15 feet!

Let me start again by saying I'm by no means a good golfer. But if you line up a 15 footer for me, I'm hitting it about 1/3 of the time unless there's crazy break. If those 10 handicappers aren't, then they must be incredible ball strikers, and if they cleaned up their short game, they may be closer to scratch.

And again, you shouldn't have a ton of 15 footers. Most of your putts should be inside of 10 feet, since at your level you're probably just off the green a lot with your approach shots. Until you do that, and improve your putting, your scores will stay high.

My best scores are when my short game is on. I can completely duff a tee shot and not beat myself up about it, because I know if my short game is on, I can still par or bogey the hole. My best 9 ever was a 42. And most of my tee shots were just terrible. But I had a chip in, and a bunch of 1 putts. Could have easily been 50+.

[pipergsm]

Lining up 15-footers on a flat green or mat will allow me to do the same, maybe even more than 1/3.

But the greens on the course are not like that.

I'm sure they're nothing like the pro-level courses, but they do have quite some slopes and breaks.