What is your opinion on the "Breakfast Ball"?

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Ok, why doesn't it apply?  You are playing a cash game with your buddies and you make a breach calling for disqualification.  In my group you are out of the game.   Any money you have lost is lost, and any money you have won is frozen at that point.  If the DQ results in you losing 1$ a hole from that point on, then it is what it is, a lesson in playing by the rules.  Posting for handicap?  DQ invalidates that round.  Sorry but you can keep up your end and I can keep up my end and as usual, you will go your way and I'll still play by the rules.  As I suggested above, send your idea into the USGA and see if they even bother to respond to such a question.

Because we're not talking about a cash game.  That would be a stroke play competition.  You keep ignoring the actual issue.  We're talking about non-competitive rounds--when you go out and play by yourself and post a score afterwards, or when you play with friends that your not competing against, or when you play with strangers.

You have to at least acknowledge that Rule 6-6 does not apply to private, non-competitive rounds, right?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by dsc123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Ok, why doesn't it apply?  You are playing a cash game with your buddies and you make a breach calling for disqualification.  In my group you are out of the game.   Any money you have lost is lost, and any money you have won is frozen at that point.  If the DQ results in you losing 1$ a hole from that point on, then it is what it is, a lesson in playing by the rules.  Posting for handicap?  DQ invalidates that round.  Sorry but you can keep up your end and I can keep up my end and as usual, you will go your way and I'll still play by the rules.  As I suggested above, send your idea into the USGA and see if they even bother to respond to such a question.

Because we're not talking about a cash game.  That would be a stroke play competition.  You keep ignoring the actual issue.  We're talking about non-competitive rounds--when you go out and play by yourself and post a score afterwards, or when you play with friends that your not competing against, or when you play with strangers.

You have to at least acknowledge that Rule 6-6 does not apply to private, non-competitive rounds, right?

Unless you are playing for handicap, and even then the USGA has changed the requirement for having scores attested.  However, that rule is still in effect in Europe and much of the rest of the world.  I still don't see how you relate that to practice on the course before a stroke play round.  Any and all full swing practice is expressly prohibited, during a round and before the round on the course to be played, and just because you aren't playing a competition makes not a particle of difference.

Besides, we still aren't talking about practice.  We are talking about excusing a mulligan because the player didn't warm up.  You will never find an argument which will get me to agree to that being within the rules.  Never.

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Unless you are playing for handicap, and even then the USGA has changed the requirement for having scores attested.  However, that rule is still in effect in Europe and much of the rest of the world.  I still don't see how you relate that to practice on the course before a stroke play round.  Any and all full swing practice is expressly prohibited, during a round and before the round on the course to be played, and just because you aren't playing a competition makes not a particle of difference..

Besides, we still aren't talking about practice.  We are talking about excusing a mulligan because the player didn't warm up.  You will never find an argument which will get me to agree to that being within the rules.  Never.

6-6(b) can't apply to handicap rounds either, it says:  " He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible."  As you note, the attestation doesn't apply to posting for handicap.  But where is that in the Rule?  I'm not saying its not there, I don't really know, but my guess is that its in the handicap manual.  If its not in the rule, then this rule doesn't apply to private/solo, posted rounds.

The relevance of this to the practice ball/breakfast ball is that by acknowledging the obvious--that Rule 6-6(b) doesn't apply to a private/solo round of golf posted for handicap purpose, you acknowledge there is a difference between private/solo rounds and competition.  Then you look at 7-1 and it becomes equally obvious that: (1) 7-1 explicitly says it is about competitive rounds; and (2) that the rational for prohibiting it in stroke play but not match play (protecting the field) doesn't apply to a solo/private round.

So this allows the conclusion that when playing a solo/private round, you may take one off the tee before playing your game.  Some have explained that as how they play a breakfast ball.  Also, 7-1 was advanced as the rule that prohibits the breakfast ball, so negating that knocks out one of the arguments against it.

And I don't want to ignore the significance of the fact that I think by starting your post with "unless you are playing for handicap" you signal your agreement that 6-6(b) doesn't apply if you're playing solo/private and not posting.  That is an acknowledgment that the argument raised by some here (and possibly you) that every Rule of Golf applies to every round of golf is false.  That's pretty much been argument #1 against the interpretation than I and I think turtleback are advocating.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You know, you can keep splitting hairs until the cows come home to justify breaking the rules to yourself, but I don't buy it.  When it's all said and done, a mulligan is a mulligan is a mulligan.  The rules prohibit mulligans, therefore they prohibit anything resembling a "breakfast ball".  Send an email to the USGA asking this question and the most likely response would be "LOL".   With that i'm quite done with this discussion.

You can now go on with your rationalizing.

I did email the USGA and they essentially agreed with me.  Since they do not allow public posting of their responses I will PM you the entire exchange and let you judge for yourself.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You know, you can keep splitting hairs until the cows come home to justify breaking the rules to yourself, but I don't buy it.  When it's all said and done, a mulligan is a mulligan is a mulligan.  The rules prohibit mulligans, therefore they prohibit anything resembling a "breakfast ball".  Send an email to the USGA asking this question and the most likely response would be "LOL".   With that i'm quite done with this discussion.

You can now go on with your rationalizing.

I did email the USGA and they essentially agreed with me.  Since they do not allow public posting of their responses I will PM you the entire exchange and let you judge for yourself.

They said that "practice" can be permitted by the committee in a stroke play comp if such practice is available equally to all players involved (which by the way is something which is never allowed in any rule or decision, so they are essentially writing a new decision in their response to you.

However, that still does not apply to the "breakfast ball" as it is generally used, because that is still a mulligan and they would never condone a penalty free do over.  (You also still face the issue of unduly delaying play.)  As its normally used, your warm-up ball has that mulligan option attached to it, that the player can use it or take the do-over as he wishes, and that means that the first ball may or may not be a practice ball, and that still would be contrary to the wording of the "decision" you received.  In a very tightly defined usage, the sort of practice you delineate would be allowed.  Only if the first ball is declared as a practice ball, and if it doesn't delay play for following groups, then I'll buy your theory.  As I choose to be on the "committee" for my group, it ain't gonna happen if you are playing with me.  It's still too much of a stretch of the intent of the term practice .

If the first ball isn't declared before hand as being strictly practice, then all bets are off.

By the way, you did notice that they said that a group of players playing an informal competition is it's own committee (a competition doesn't have to have a prize to qualify - playing for bragging rights is still competing), and able to institute local rules from the Rules of Golf if they feel that it's warranted.  They can make decisions on the fly about such things as what should have been marked as GUR, how to treat an improperly marked hazard, etc., without going to the pro shop about it.  They still don't have the right to play fast and loose with the rules and still deem it a legitimate score.   I've said that any number of times and half the time I was told I was wrong, that only the "course" (whatever entity that invokes ) could, for instance, declare that GPS and lasers were allowed.  This is one of those things that each group can decide for itself unless there is a formal committee overseeing their play.

[dsc123]

Did the response directly respond to the definition of competition/competitor?  From fourputt's post, it looks like are still talking about competitions.  Or does the part about informal competitions mean that if you're playing alone you are your own committee and may permit a practice ball?

[trackster]

To the people saying that you can allow yourself a breakfast ball because it's a casual round or what ever B.S. The rules of golf cover two situations: match play and stroke play.  To say that the rules don't cover casual rounds is a load of crap.  Your "casual round" is either stroke play or match play if you are playing those conditions against a buddy.  Your casual round can be what ever you want to call it but if you are going to "count" it you either follow the rules of stroke play or match play.  If you are going to adopt B.S. rulings than that is fine, but you can not justify yourself as being with in the rules.

[Lash]

Here's the thing that I think gets to the bottom of all this....whether you are playing alone or with others, if you are submitting your round for a handicap you have to play by all rules for that to be legitimate. You have to have one set of rules tor everyone to follow, so that when that handicap is later used to adjust scores in a competition that number is contrived the same way for everyone. So in a way any round which affects or uses your handicap is linked to a future competition with other people and all rules apply.

In this case, a "breakfast ball" that is used as a mulligan is absolutely against the rules. A ball that is issued as a practice ball would be a bit more gray but still shouldn't be used, as it could still be seen as testing the wind, similar to not being allowed to test the bunker conditions before a hit.

However, if you are not submitting a handicap you can still be playing "golf" and allow everyone involved to hit a mulligan or breakfast ball or practice shot, whatever you want to call it. You are still playing "golf" just like American League teams still play baseball when they use a DH or Canadian Football League teams still play football when they allow receivers to get a head start, or International basketball teams are still playing basketball when they use a different shaped 3-point line. It all still falls under that one sport, regardless of which variations you are using. To state that someone not following every rule to the "T" is not playing "golf" is just pretentious BS that would be enough to drive many casual golfers away from the sport.

It's a sport for crying out loud, and it should be fun. You can change that up a bit and still have fun. Whether that change be allowing one practice shot on the first hole, or scrambling with a partner, or using "gimmes" within a certain distance. It's still golf and is still fair as long as everyone is following those same rules and has the same opportunities.

Obviously, if you are using a handicap or counting towards one, you should follow every rule to the best of your ability so that your score represents something similar to everyone you might compete with at some point. If you don't have markers or your club doesn't sign scorecards, obviously you can't do that. But you should still follow every other rule.

It's not like "golf" is some sacred thing that has never changed and must be played under one specific set of strict rules. It's just that you need rules to be the same for everyone in a competition, even relating to previous rounds that will effect your final score through a handicap.

[thescarecrow]

Originally Posted by Lash

Here's the thing that I think gets to the bottom of all this....whether you are playing alone or with others, if you are submitting your round for a handicap you have to play by all rules for that to be legitimate. You have to have one set of rules tor everyone to follow, so that when that handicap is later used to adjust scores in a competition that number is contrived the same way for everyone. So in a way any round which affects or uses your handicap is linked to a future competition with other people and all rules apply.

In this case, a "breakfast ball" that is used as a mulligan is absolutely against the rules. A ball that is issued as a practice ball would be a bit more gray but still shouldn't be used, as it could still be seen as testing the wind, similar to not being allowed to test the bunker conditions before a hit.

However, if you are not submitting a handicap you can still be playing "golf" and allow everyone involved to hit a mulligan or breakfast ball or practice shot, whatever you want to call it. You are still playing "golf" just like American League teams still play baseball when they use a DH or Canadian Football League teams still play football when they allow receivers to get a head start, or International basketball teams are still playing basketball when they use a different shaped 3-point line. It all still falls under that one sport, regardless of which variations you are using. To state that someone not following every rule to the "T" is not playing "golf" is just pretentious BS that would be enough to drive many casual golfers away from the sport.

It's a sport for crying out loud, and it should be fun. You can change that up a bit and still have fun. Whether that change be allowing one practice shot on the first hole, or scrambling with a partner, or using "gimmes" within a certain distance. It's still golf and is still fair as long as everyone is following those same rules and has the same opportunities.

Obviously, if you are using a handicap or counting towards one, you should follow every rule to the best of your ability so that your score represents something similar to everyone you might compete with at some point. If you don't have markers or your club doesn't sign scorecards, obviously you can't do that. But you should still follow every other rule.

It's not like "golf" is some sacred thing that has never changed and must be played under one specific set of strict rules. It's just that you need rules to be the same for everyone in a competition, even relating to previous rounds that will effect your final score through a handicap.

Well said.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by trackster

To the people saying that you can allow yourself a breakfast ball because it's a casual round or what ever B.S. The rules of golf cover two situations: match play and stroke play.  To say that the rules don't cover casual rounds is a load of crap.  Your "casual round" is either stroke play or match play if you are playing those conditions against a buddy.  Your casual round can be what ever you want to call it but if you are going to "count" it you either follow the rules of stroke play or match play.  If you are going to adopt B.S. rulings than that is fine, but you can not justify yourself as being with in the rules.

Pretty much right.

The funny thing is that there is all this BS about golf being a game of honour and people calling penalties against themselves etc. This is magnified when a golfer on TV is terrified that HD high speed cameras will detect something even he didn't see, so he calls a penalty and the commentators crap on about integrity etc.etc.

While this is not always disingenuous, cetainly at the highest level, for fear of the consequences of being labelled a cheat, it's so strange that a few people on this forum, basically demand the right to cheat, or at least ask that others allow it - and then try to justify it. If you are late or there is no practise area, too bad. You hit your first shot without a practise shot, as I will be in a monthly medal round in an hour's time with a hazard all the way to the right side. I haven't hit a shot on a practise fairway in years before a round because we don't have one.

Much simpler to just play by the rules.

Anyone who takes a mulligan at any point and then uses his card for handicapping is a cheat. No other interpretation.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You know, you can keep splitting hairs until the cows come home to justify breaking the rules to yourself, but I don't buy it.  When it's all said and done, a mulligan is a mulligan is a mulligan.  The rules prohibit mulligans, therefore they prohibit anything resembling a "breakfast ball".  Send an email to the USGA asking this question and the most likely response would be "LOL".   With that i'm quite done with this discussion.

You can now go on with your rationalizing.

I did email the USGA and they essentially agreed with me.  Since they do not allow public posting of their responses I will PM you the entire exchange and let you judge for yourself.

They said that "practice" can be permitted by the committee in a stroke play comp if such practice is available equally to all players involved (which by the way is something which is never allowed in any rule or decision, so they are essentially writing a new decision in their response to you.

However, that still does not apply to the "breakfast ball" as it is generally used, because that is still a mulligan and they would never condone a penalty free do over.

Which was never in dispute, as far as I can tell.

So now that the USGA has shown this was a valid question to ask, I guess it wasn't as ridiculous and unworthy of discussion as you and a few others originally thought.

Thank you dsc and turlte for keeping the conversation going.

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

So now that the USGA has shown this was a valid question to ask, I guess it wasn't as ridiculous and unworthy of discussion as you and a few others originally thought.

Yet the four posts prior to yours are still of the "obviously you must follow all of the rules all of the time and if you don't you're a cheater" variety.

[David in FL]

Only because you are ignoring the rules that apply to stroke play competitions which clearly do not apply to a private round.  When was the last time the Committee gave you a scorecard at the beginning of a private round with your name and the date on it?  Yet that is a clear requirement for a stroke play competition.  And you might say, "Well that is in a competition and this is a private round", to whcih I say, "Exactly my point!" And I will direct to you the same question I directed to FourPutt:  What is the significance of being DQed in a private non-competitive round?  Don't you think there is a difference between a competitive round and a non-competitive round when the worst penalty that can be imposed on you in a competitive round, DQ, is utterly meaningless in a non-competitive round?  If you just ignore each of the instances I've given of the difference (presumably because the differences involve situations that are external to the course of play - but then again so does pre-round practice on the course) then you are right, there are no differences.  But that is because you are ignoring the differences I've cited, not because they do not exist.  Because you have not explained why these differences are not really differences at all. And some have defined their version of a breakfast ball as simply hitting a practice shot from near the first tee prior to beginning the round.  So under THAT definition of a breakfast ball this discussion is still on-topic, IMO.

I'll give you credit for one thing. I've never seen anyone work this hard trying to justify a mulligan....

[David in FL]

Much simpler to just play by the rules.

If some people spent as much time working to improve their game as they spent trying to justify their inability to ply by the rules, I suspect they'd be much better golfers..... ......note, I'm not necessarily talking about any particular individual here. :-D

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

Only because you are ignoring the rules that apply to stroke play competitions which clearly do not apply to a private round.  When was the last time the Committee gave you a scorecard at the beginning of a private round with your name and the date on it?  Yet that is a clear requirement for a stroke play competition.  And you might say, "Well that is in a competition and this is a private round", to whcih I say, "Exactly my point!"

And I will direct to you the same question I directed to FourPutt:  What is the significance of being DQed in a private non-competitive round?  Don't you think there is a difference between a competitive round and a non-competitive round when the worst penalty that can be imposed on you in a competitive round, DQ, is utterly meaningless in a non-competitive round?  If you just ignore each of the instances I've given of the difference (presumably because the differences involve situations that are external to the course of play - but then again so does pre-round practice on the course) then you are right, there are no differences.  But that is because you are ignoring the differences I've cited, not because they do not exist.  Because you have not explained why these differences are not really differences at all.

And some have defined their version of a breakfast ball as simply hitting a practice shot from near the first tee prior to beginning the round.  So under THAT definition of a breakfast ball this discussion is still on-topic, IMO.

I'll give you credit for one thing. I've never seen anyone work this hard trying to justify a mulligan....

A mulligan is when you don't like a shot that would've otherwise counted, so you hit another and count it instead.  What turtle, dsc, and I have been talking about is a shot before your round begins, that you never intend to count - i.e., a practice ball.  Maybe it's our fault for not making that clear enough.

At any rate, since the USGA apparently didn't think the latter was illegal, it's clearly not a mulligan.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

A mulligan is when you don't like a shot that would've otherwise counted, so you hit another and count it instead.  What turtle, dsc, and I have been talking about is a shot before your round begins, that you never intend to count - i.e., a practice ball.  Maybe it's our fault for not making that clear enough.

I would suggest that most people don't call that a breakfast ball. Most people say "I'm gonna take a breakfast ball" and mean it synonymously with mulligan. As in "oops, that was bad. I'll try again."

Otherwise, just make a practice SWING. Who cares if you actually hit a ball with your "shot you never intend to count?" Just make a swing. Swing at a flower or something. What's it matter that you actually hit a golf ball? Or put a plastic or foam golf ball on the ground and hit it if you need to hit a smallish roundish object.

No, most people's "breakfast ball" IS a mulligan. They only take it when their first drive is bad. I don't think you'll convince me otherwise. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone pre-announce that they're going to hit a golf ball, but that under no circumstance will it count at all, and that they've not begun their round until their SECOND ball. Never seen it. And for a few years I played with some pretty dodgy old dudes in a weekly game. :)

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

A mulligan is when you don't like a shot that would've otherwise counted, so you hit another and count it instead.  What turtle, dsc, and I have been talking about is a shot before your round begins, that you never intend to count - i.e., a practice ball.  Maybe it's our fault for not making that clear enough.

I would suggest that most people don't call that a breakfast ball. Most people say "I'm gonna take a breakfast ball" and mean it synonymously with mulligan. As in "oops, that was bad. I'll try again."

Exactly, but we weren't calling it a "breakfast ball" - the topic just grew out of the discussion of the "breakfast ball", as a way of perhaps getting a similar benefit without breaking any rules.

Originally Posted by iacas

Otherwise, just make a practice SWING. Who cares if you actually hit a ball with your "shot you never intend to count?" Just make a swing. Swing at a flower or something. What's it matter that you actually hit a golf ball? Or put a plastic or foam golf ball on the ground and hit it if you need to hit a smallish roundish object.

I'd be surprised if anyone else shared the opinion that a practice swing is as beneficial as actually making contact with a ball, but I won't argue that point.

Originally Posted by iacas

No, most people's "breakfast ball" IS a mulligan. They only take it when their first drive is bad. I don't think you'll convince me otherwise. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone pre-announce that they're going to hit a golf ball, but that under no circumstance will it count at all, and that they've not begun their round until their SECOND ball. Never seen it. And for a few years I played with some pretty dodgy old dudes in a weekly game. :)

No argument from me on any of those points either, but of course they were not the points under discussion in the side topic that turtle, dsc, me, Rick, etc were having.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I'd be surprised if anyone else shared the opinion that a practice swing is as beneficial as actually making contact with a ball, but I won't argue that point.

It's not, but that's kind of the point - that's why the rules prohibit practicing on the golf course by hitting a ball, but allow practice swings at flowers. :) That's why I said "swing at a flower or something."

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

No argument from me on any of those points either, but of course they were not the points under discussion in the side topic that turtle, dsc, me, Rick, etc were having.

Yeah, and on that, I checked out awhile ago as you know (IMO it's a pointless discussion - I've never hit a "practice ball" on the course and don't see any distinction between "competitive" rounds and other rounds of golf if you're playing for a score).