Gulbis - Bad Flag Etiquette

[iacas]

People are discussing this. Not only is Natalie's butt on the flag, but it's upside down and touching the ground. Suffice to say, that's poor flag etiquette - that much is not up for debate.

The question being debated currently is this: how big a sin is this, really? Do we give her a free pass because she was probably too frantic to think about it? Or do we say "gee, it's an American flag, you don't get a pass on desecrating it at any time!"

-------

Personally, I'm a big fan of flag etiquette. I hate it when flags are hung incorrectly, displayed incorrectly, or when people let flags tatter and tear outside their homes (or whatever). Ugh.

I think Natalie should have taken a little more care here. I could have forgiven one offense, but THREE!?!? Ugh. Natalie, c'mon, you're cute and all, and you just won a tournament, and maybe you were (or a photographer was) trying to be patriotic, but show a little respect for your country's flag and be patriotic in the right way.

I'm not going to hold this against her for long - a few days or so - but it sure bugs me right now. Grrrrrrrrrr.

P.S. Anyone who sees fit to make inappropriate comments about how attractive Natalie is, how much you'd "like to be the flag," etc. will be temporarily banned and their comments removed. in other words, any opinion is welcome, but keep it to the flag, not Natalie's appearance.

[digger21]

Wow. This is what we've come to. A great golfer wins a tournament, holds a trophy on a flag, and the thing thats noticed is flag etiquette? For crying out loud this country is a bunch of cry babies sometimes. UNLESS the person is making a point of destroying or doing something wrong with the flag, I dont think we even need to think about it. We got better things to worry about.

[alf174]

I believe she was too caught up in the moment to recognize what happened but there is definitely no excuse for LPGA officials or the media handlers; it should have been caught quickly before any photos were taken.

[Norm66]

Bad etiquette certainly. But she's hardly the first to do it, look at every Olympic gold medalist with the flag wrapped over them drooping on the ground etc.(though in all honesty I don't recall anyone ever sitting on one). You have to take into account the fact that the photographers in France probably aren't aware of US flag etiquette and that's probably who posed her such.

Does it tick me off? A little. My father, and three of my four grandparents served in the Armed services and I was taught to honor the flag as a way of honoring those who serve(d) it. I don't think it'll make me anti-Natalie though. It was an exciting day for her and flag etiquette was probably the last thing on her mind. I do bet she gets enough flack for this that she'll know better next time.

[dkm978]

Did she set up this shot? Or was it the photographer's doing??

[iacas]

Wow. This is what we've come to. A great golfer wins a tournament, holds a trophy on a flag, and the thing thats noticed is flag etiquette? For crying out loud this country is a bunch of cry babies sometimes. UNLESS the person is making a point of destroying or doing something wrong with the flag, I dont think we even need to think about it. We got better things to worry about.

Nobody's denying that Natalie is a great golfer, and we all know she won her first event.

I would like to hope that caring about proper flag etiquette is "what we've come to." I believe in showing respect for our country's flag. Still, this flag thing is being discussed in the golf world and beyond, and the discussion has merit. Natalie is, after all, "doing something wrong with the flag." That's why it's being discussed.

Did she set up this shot? Or was it the photographer's doing??

I consider that irrelevant. If I was told to sit on a flag touching the ground and upside down, I like to think I'd not do so, that I'd immediately pick up the flag from touching the ground, etc.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

[alf174]

I've decided that it warranted an email to the LPGA with a strong suggestion that they do some damage control (apology, whatever). Unintentional as it is, something like this can escalate very quickly and get totally out of hand.

[dkm978]

I consider that irrelevant. If I was told to sit on a flag touching the ground and upside down, I like to think I'd not do so, that I'd immediately pick up the flag from touching the ground, etc.

While it still is her responsibility due to the fact it is her picture, I just find it easier to forgive seeing as how it probably was not her explicit idea.

[GoingfortheGreen]

Sure, it was in poor taste. I am curious as to whether this incident generates a buzz (beyond TST) whereby she will apologize. If she didn't know it was wrong, it's a question of fessing up and saying sorry, I didn't realize it was wrong.

Most people don't know anything about flag etiquette, and were probably excited to see her 'show' the flag. More information can be found here --

US Flag Code

[dkm978]

Sure, it was in poor taste. I am curious as to whether this incident generates a buzz (beyond TST) whereby she will apologize. If she didn't know it was wrong, it's a question of fessing up and saying sorry, I didn't realize it was wrong.

Upon reviewing the flag code, it seems like most things that are considered patriotic these days (t-shirts, back windows of trucks, etc) seem to be against the code.

Due to the fact that she is breaking a few of the more well known rules is probably what could make this a bigger deal (if it becomes one at all).

[iacas]

While it still is her responsibility due to the fact it is her picture, I just find it easier to forgive seeing as how it probably was not her explicit idea.

So if you see something illegal happening and can stop it without putting yourself in harm's way (i.e. I'm not suggesting you try to stop an armed robbery or anything), you should just let it continue because it wasn't your idea or you're not involved?

If I see some kids spray-painting a school or a building somewhere, I'm going to say something to them (or the police). I'm not just going to let it slide. I've also mentioned improper flag etiquette to people responsible the times I've seen it and mentioning it has been practical or feasible.

I am curious as to whether this incident generates a buzz (beyond TST) whereby she will apologize.

I don't know that she will, and again this is something I likely won't think about beyond today, but this picture is already getting buzz beyond TST. I read three or four other stories today about it before deciding to post this thread. I usually like posts to come from the users, not the staff, and try to post only when I feel something is being overlooked.

Most people don't know anything about flag etiquette, and were probably excited to see her 'show' the flag.

Natalie being ignorant to something? Yeah, I can see that.

Upon reviewing the flag code, it seems like most things that are considered patriotic these days (t-shirts, back windows of trucks, etc) seem to be against the code.

Yeah, some of the official things go a bit too far (no flags on clothing, for example). But putting your ass on it, displaying it upside down, and touching the ground are pretty big ones.

[dkm978]

So if you see something illegal happening and can stop it without putting yourself in harm's way (i.e. I'm not suggesting you try to stop an armed robbery or anything), you should just let it continue because it wasn't your idea or you're not involved?

Very valid point. I'll just chalk this one up to not thinking it through. I didn't even notice that she was violating the code until I opened this thread, at which point it became very obvious.

[Bo the Golfer]

She or her handlers should have done something-my brother and I received a flag from my uncle after his funeral as he has no kids and make sure we take care of it properly-this will be a non-issue to most which says a lot about where we've been heading as a country for a long time.

[Roody]

I can't say that it bothers me. I don't think there was bad intention there. Intention would have a lot more to do with it than anything. If she was spitting on it or what not, then it's a deliberate act of disrespect towards our flag.

Let's not let it overshadow her victory.

[dkm978]

I can't say that it bothers me. I don't think there was bad intention there. Intention would have a lot more to do with it than anything. If she was spitting on it or what not, then it's a deliberate act of disrespect towards our flag.

This is what I was getting at when I asked who set up the shot.

I just hope she'll keep on winning to prove she's not the Kournikova of golf.

[JKilgore44]

So if you see something illegal happening and can stop it without putting yourself in harm's way (i.e. I'm not suggesting you try to stop an armed robbery or anything), you should just let it continue because it wasn't your idea or you're not involved?

I wouldn't exactly classify this offense under the same as vandelism or defacing public property. Yes, it's wrong to disrespect your countrys flag. But I think that the photographer who staged the shoot should be at liability. Also, I think the reason it was layed over the stool in that position was simply to make the both the stars and the stripes visible to the viewer. I'm quite sure that the person who staged the shoot didn't think to himself that he was intentionally disrespecting the flag. I will agree that it shouldn't touch the ground, but the fact that she's sitting on it doesn't really offend me at all. People can wear flag on their clothing, on their bodies, on their vehicles, etc etc. Her sitting on a flag doesn't seem like the issue to me.

I'm not offended by her actions. I'm angry at the person who took the picture more than anyone. I truthfully think the photo was staged in the manner it was though because the idea was to portray an image of her "on top of America". She's just come off her 1st tour win and is possibly the most beautiful girl on the LPGA tour. She's on top America either way you look at it.

[Roody]

This is what I was getting at when I asked who set up the shot.

Well, let's throw the whole flag etiquette thing aside. Let's pretend for one minute that there is no such thing as flag etiquette. All that aside, the shot they setup was kinda stupid to begin with. Why would you drape a flag over a barstool and have someone sit on it with their trophy? Not that I am a professional photographer or anything, but it looks kinda dumb.

I would think a better shot would have had Natalie with the flag draped around her (though I guess that would make it harder to hold the trophy at the same time as holding the flag). Meh, whatever.

[iacas]

But I think that the photographer who staged the shoot should be at liability. ... I'm quite sure that the person who staged the shoot didn't think to himself that he was intentionally disrespecting the flag.

That's beside the point. Whoever set up the shot may have not been an American citizen, and my guess is a similar shot was captured by tends of photographers.

The simple truth remains that Natalie, an American Citizen, sat on the flag and clearly saw it was touching the ground (etc.). I cannot free her of all responsibility because she didn't "stage" it. She took part in it, and she's an American citizen.