Swing speed numbers.... advice needed

[sigfan2340]

I went to a ball fitting yesterday for the heck of it (Bridgestone) and of course they recommended the E6, a ball I am switching to anyways. The numbers they gave were....

103.1 club speed

143.9 Ball Speed

9.9 Degree Launch Angle

3105 back spin

235 yard carry distance

So my question is, I hit a Nike Covert driver with the stock STIFF shaft. Am I playing the correct shaft stiffness? Should I get anything else out of those numbers as well?

[Pretzel]

Considering that the shaft is a stock shaft, it is very likely you are playing something that is correct for your swing speed. The only thing I can see that could be detrimental to your distance or accuracy is the spin level of your driver. I'm assuming that this was the lowest spin value that gave you greater accuracy, but it still seems fairly high to me. On the infrequent occasions that I use a launch monitor, I like to see less than 2500 RPM for my spin off the tee.

The largest potential issue I see here is the launch angle. What loft is your driver? That launch angle is incredibly low to what I'm used to seeing (Mine is around 12-13 degrees with a 10.5 degree driver), and it would lead me to believe that your driver either has a shaft with too high of a kickpoint or your loft is too low to match your swing.

Of those two possibilities I am more inclined to believe that it is the second rather than the first, just because of the higher spinrate. Using a higher lofted driver would allow you to get a higher launch angle while using a shaft that has a stiffer tip to get some spin reduction. Since the launch angle is so low though, you would have to look at more shafts than usual. If launch angle wasn't a factor here, I would just recommend trying something like a ProLaunch Red (my personal shaft of choice) or a Diamana Whiteboard if you wanted to get into the pricey options.

Bottom line is that you're not playing too soft a shaft, just possibly one with a kickpoint too high for your swing or a driver with improper loft. The numbers aren't really bad though if you can control the ball still and keep it in the fairway, but otherwise you could always experiment to find something that might work better for you. Just a matter of whether you are currently happy with your ballflight/control or whether you think you need to change something.

[Beachcomber]

I'm guessing you're AoA is too steep and not swinging up. Your launch should be higher. Much higher.

[mdl]

Launch angle and spin rate for sure.  103-104 is fine for the average stiff labeled shaft.  Like above, I'd bet your loft is too low or there's some other shaft issues (though I'm no expert there).  With 103-104 swing speed you could definitely be carrying more like 250 with better launch and spin.  And all the monitors I've been on (granted, at golf shops trying to sell!) tend to inflate carry distance at least a bit, so if the monitor was giving your 235 carry then you're really not getting the most out of your swing speed.

[RandallT]

Concur re: launch angles and spins are not optimal. I had a club fitting a couple weeks back and my swing speed is similar to you. They are sending me the raw data soon, but I recall 2500-2700 rpm and 12-14 launch. Much longer carries than yours, closer to 255-260, I think. On an unrelated side note. I'll keep hounding the club fitter to send me my data- I'm frustrated they couldn't figure out how to print it out. This was a professional outfit, but maybe an inexperienced fitter? He seemed rushed and had to get the next client going. Most of what I wanted out of my session was a numerical baseline of where my swing is after over a year of dedicated focus. I want that data!

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by sigfan2340

I went to a ball fitting yesterday for the heck of it (Bridgestone) and of course they recommended the E6, a ball I am switching to anyways. The numbers they gave were....

103.1 club speed

143.9 Ball Speed

9.9 Degree Launch Angle

3105 back spin

235 yard carry distance

So my question is, I hit a Nike Covert driver with the stock STIFF shaft. Am I playing the correct shaft stiffness? Should I get anything else out of those numbers as well?

honestly the backspin isn't that bad. Though, 9.9 degrees is a bit low. I would say your hitting down on the driver, not up. I assume your loft is above 9 degrees. This tells me that from a static of of your driver loft, your adding very little loft, or decreasing the loft on your driver. Which is ok since it probably means your hands are forward at impact, that delofts it. But, it also tells me your hitting down on the ball.

If we take your numbers, give you a dynamic loft of 15 degrees, even if your spin lowers from hitting up on the ball, your looking at 10 more yards in distance.

Another thing to look at, your smash factor is 1.39, if you work on contact, you can get that up near 1.45+, you'll be up near 148 mph ball speed. You can get an additional 20 yards on your driver, your looking at topping around 250 yards.

I agree, the shaft might be the problem, stock shafts are tough to gauge. Though nike does use a non proprietary shaft in Mitsubishi kurokage black. Its a mid kick point, the torque is pretty high on it as well. So it might be a bit to weak of a shaft there. But it should produce a mid flight trajectory. If your ball is starting off low (the 9.9 is pretty low launch, you really want 12-16), i am thinking you hit down on the ball. I would work on getting your clubhead, hand, and shoulder to line up together at impact. From there you can move the ball slightly more forward, until your hitting up on the ball slightly. This will get you less spin, higher launch angle.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by sigfan2340

I went to a ball fitting yesterday for the heck of it (Bridgestone) and of course they recommended the E6, a ball I am switching to anyways. The numbers they gave were....

103.1 club speed

143.9 Ball Speed

9.9 Degree Launch Angle

3105 back spin

235 yard carry distance

So my question is, I hit a Nike Covert driver with the stock STIFF shaft. Am I playing the correct shaft stiffness? Should I get anything else out of those numbers as well?

A couple of things that I notice right off but realize that I am speaking generically (there are unknown factors here)...

Your ball speed is low for the club speed. With a smash factor (bs/cs) @ 1.4 you are missing something as you should be able to get closer to 1.45-1.48ish which would put your ball speed in the 150 range (very respectable). If you are cutting the ball, hitting the toe, making poor contact, etc. this can lead to a non-optimized result.

The launch angle is low and the spin is high. If you could somehow increase the launch angle to the 14 degree range and lower spin to the 2500 range You would pick up significant yardage. How do you do that? There are many ways. Before I look towards equipment, I would make sure that my swing is sound. Hitting downward in a significant manner could be the culprit. I would think that given a 103 mph swing speed with a 9.5-10.5 degree head and a stock stiff that you would at least be in the ballpark and go from there.

My last time in the simulator looked like this.  I think the carry is a little long for the numbers, but my swing speed is more in the 103 range which puts my ball speed around 151 so these numbers would work.

DOT (1* open)
SS 100
BS 146
LA 13.5
Sp 2700
Carry 251
Total 275

TA (.7 open)
SS 100
BS 145
LA 14.8
Sp 2800
Carry 250
Total 274

TA (1.5 open)
SS 100
BS 147
LA 14.5
Sp 2500
Carry 255
Total 280

Finally, if you want to play around and experiment online there is a cool trajectory optimizer from Flightscope here:

http://www.flightscope.com/index.php/Technology-Explained/trajectoryoptimizer.html

[WUTiger]

As others have said, the backspin rate is high, and the launch angle is low.

You might need more loft on your driver, or you might have an unusual set-up which causes you to hit down on driver. It would be helpful if you knew your Attack Angle.

Majority of club fitters I've talked to say find the right shaft, and then fine-tune with loft changes.

[saevel25]

After messing around with flightscope, i found that to maximize distance you want two things

1) higher launch angle

2) lower spin rate

The problem is launch angle is determined by the dynamic loft, and angle of attack. Roughly 85% D.Loft to 15%AA

So if you hit down on the ball, your lowering your angle of attack by 0.15 degrees per degree down. That can be alot for an amateur who hits down at 5-10 degrees. That means a lot of distance, one degree down, could mean as much as 5-10 yards in some cases, depending on other factors

Dynamic loft is based on the swing. Swinging up on the ball naturally gives a person a better dynamic loft condition. Hitting down will tend to create conditions were the spin loft is increased, and this is why you see amateurs hit those ballooning shots. The ball starts off low, then rises up, and falls down at a steep angle. So loss of distance and no roll. If you shallow out that angle of attack, get it to slightly positive, now your swing will produce a lower spin loft.

Basically were looking into a range of launch conditions were you don't want to low of a loft because you'll loose carry distance, but if you have to high of a loft your bringing in to much spin, and lowering your smash factor.

This is were different aspects of the golf shaft come into effect, mainly the kick point. If you have a high kick point, that will lower the launch angle. How will this happen, it lowers the dynamic loft. You can get more fine tune on this by getting a high kick point, but different tip and mid section stiffness as well.

Once you get your golf shaft tuned in, then you can see what loft you want. So basically loft on your driver is fine tuning were you want it to be.

But, by looking at trackman figures, you probably looking at a spin loft of 8-13 degrees. I would say that lower swing speed want to be near 13, higher swing speeds want to be near 8. The reason is, higher swing speeds will produce more spin, so they want lower spin loft. While slower swing speeds can't count on the launch angle to produce distance like higher swing speeds, so more spin for them will mean more carry.

Titleist has a good reference in there custom golf shaft guide. they have a good chart showing launch angle versus spin rate. So you can look at your current golf shaft and say, Ok is the ball ballooning, is it launching to high, so this is my current shaft, here's one that might better.

Your not going to get pro level accuracy, unless your willing to shell out money, but you can get close. With and adjustable driver, you can then fine tune the loft down more.

[sigfan2340]

Thanks for the info everyone! I have my driver set a 10.5. I played 18 yesterday with a some very good golfers and my cart partner was helping me a ton. He noticed that I was pulling my hand too far inside causing an out it in? swing. Once he demonstrated it I knew what he was talking about. I worked on that the rest of the round and will be hitting the driving range.

[saevel25]

Its very hard to get your hands to far inside. The more common fault is that your not rotating your hips open enough in the backswing, so your gaining depth artificially with your hands. If rotate your hips open enough in the backswing, you create the depth you need.

[TourSpoon]

Its very hard to get your hands to far inside. The more common fault is that your not rotating your hips open enough in the backswing, so your gaining depth artificially with your hands. If rotate your hips open enough in the backswing, you create the depth you need.

Unless you mean starting the backswing by pulling your hands inside, lifting, and then coming over the top with an out to in glancing blow.

[sigfan2340]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Unless you mean starting the backswing by pulling your hands inside, lifting, and then coming over the top with an out to in glancing blow.

That is a 100% what I mean. I am starting bring the hands back on a straighter path and that should help the spin numbers right? I also need to make sure everything is square at impact. I was forward pressing way to much as well.

[Stretch]

235 yards carry is actually pretty good for 144 mph ball speed. With your club head speed, though, you're leaving almost 10 mph of potential ball speed on the table and that's what's really costing you distance. If I was fitting, I would want to see you consistently in the low 150s.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by sigfan2340

That is a 100% what I mean. I am starting bring the hands back on a straighter path and that should help the spin numbers right? I also need to make sure everything is square at impact. I was forward pressing way to much as well.

Yep, forward press too much and your shoulders creep open and you whip the hands inside then up maybe crossing the line. You start back with the shoulders to reroute the club coming down over the top and steep. Without turning this into a swing thread, you want to set up square, take the club down the line and then around, then start with the hips which bring you down in the slot to hit the ball from the outside. I heard a great tip the other day for people that are around-up-around and down. The guy said think up-around-down and around which is the opposite of what you are doing (Furyk is an extreme example). This is overly simplified but it makes sense to me. Your best bet is to see a teaching pro.

Really, the backswing sets you up for the downswing. It's what is happening through the impact zone that will help your spin numbers. What kind of surprises me is that if you are really coming over the top why your launch angle is so low with a 10.5 driver. Usually this kind of swing has a higher slicing ball flight. Some good instruction, before an equipment change is what I would recommend.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Yep, forward press too much and your shoulders creep open and you whip the hands inside then up maybe crossing the line. You start back with the shoulders to reroute the club coming down over the top and steep. Without turning this into a swing thread, you want to set up square, take the club down the line and then around, then start with the hips which bring you down in the slot to hit the ball from the outside. I heard a great tip the other day for people that are around-up-around and down. The guy said think up-around-down and around which is the opposite of what you are doing (Furyk is an extreme example). This is overly simplified but it makes sense to me. Your best bet is to see a teaching pro.

Really, the backswing sets you up for the downswing. It's what is happening through the impact zone that will help your spin numbers. What kind of surprises me is that if you are really coming over the top why your launch angle is so low with a 10.5 driver. Usually this kind of swing has a higher slicing ball flight. Some good instruction, before an equipment change is what I would recommend.

1) doesn't matter were the club is at the top, its impossible to tell because, if your shoulders under rotate, then your club could overswing and look down the line, but its a bad position. The top of the swing doesn't matter were the club is pointing. you got to know were it is in relation to how much shoulder turn you have.

2) Club never goes down the line. The club goes into an arc. What your doing is a feel that works for you, not what happens.

3) Single piece take away has caused many problems for amateurs, because it throws off there shoulder and hip rotation rates. If you keep your hips silent, your getting your shoulder to rotate to much, then it pulls on your body and you can have lateral movement. Let the hips rotate with the shoulders in the swing, don't keep the back leg knee bent so much in the backswing, let it extend a bit.

4) Yes you can practice and opposite, but don't think of it in the swing. What you do is, lets say you take the club to far inside. Go very slow, no need to hit balls, and just practice the opposite to the extreme, this will help get the to inside swing away. But it will be small incremental changes over time. Trying to do one feeling while you play, as a band-aid fix will lead to ton of inconsistency.

5) over the top does launch the ball lower. here's why, for a pull slicer, the swing is outside to in. The clubface is open to that swing path, but closed to your target line. Meaning the ball starts left, and slices right. So what does this do to the numbers. The face is slightly shut, so the loft is decreased.

If you had to rank the shots hit, in terms of height, from lowest to highest in launch angle

Pull hook - Lowest

Pull

Pull slice (most common slice)

Straight draw

Straight

Straight Fade

Push draw

Push

Push fade -  Highest

[sigfan2340]

I went to the range and brought the wife and video camera. I hit some shots and then watched them. I could see what was happening very clearly. A few more range sessions and I hope to have it much closer. All the advice you guys are giving is helping a ton!

[kw purp]

For shaft I would go with what you are more comfortable with and not necessary with what the numbers say you should hit. I was recommended by a pro to switch to stiff shaft based on my numbers, but I kept slicing with the stiff. With regular flex I play a draw. I stuck with the regular.