Draw spin and back spin.

[inthecup]

I am not a long hitter. With driver 250-260 is all I am going to get with a well struck shot.  I can swing faster but "bad things happen"

My normal not quite perfectly struck drive is 230-240 ( honesty can be disturbing on an Internet forum, I apologize if some find it disturbing.)

Anyway I have been working on my consistency and distance.  I am pretty sure based on launch monitors that I hit up on the ball.

I tee it so a standard 2-1/4" tee is barely in the ground.  I am working on an in to in push draw.  When I hit that well I get good distance and it is very playable.  The more inside I am on the downswing the better I am able to eliminate the left side of the course.   What I do not get is much roll. The balls peak height is 30 yards (again launch monitor data and it sure looks that way). If I have draw spin should I get some roll? My ball usually leaves a big mark in the fairway but does not back up it just does not go forward much.

I get this launch with an 8.5 degree G20 driver with a factory stiff shaft. My swing speed is in the mid to upper 90's last I checked which was a few months ago. My spin was around 2500 rpm. I also surmise that when I hit the ball high on the face it goes further.   You can tell because it does not feel like the center of the clubface but the ball really flies I assume by decreased spin.

I am comfortable with the high ball flight and I am pretty sure with my swing speed and the distance I get that I am not putting a huge amount of backspin but there are doubts!

[Jeremie Boop]

Draw spin does typically give a good amount of roll, however if your ball is getting really high in the air and drops pretty softly you won't get much roll regardless of draw spin. I was running into a similar issue with my previous driver, however it was a 10.5* and since I've moved to a 9.5* I've gained a pretty decent amount of roll out. It is possible you are hitting too far up on the ball maybe and your AoA/launch angle is too high? Did the launch monitor give you that data?

[birlyshirly]

Given that you have a choice of driver head lofts, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to achieve decent roll-out hitting a fade shape.

Originally Posted by inthecup

I am not a long hitter. With driver 250-260 is all I am going to get with a well struck shot.  I can swing faster but "bad things happen"

My normal not quite perfectly struck drive is 230-240 ( honesty can be disturbing on an Internet forum, I apologize if some find it disturbing.)

That disclosure shouldn't be that disturbing. I know the figures that get bandied about - but I think that's plenty to play a decent level of recreational/club golf. You should be much more concerned that you have a factory shaft in your driver!

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by birlyshirly

Given that you have a choice of driver head lofts, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to achieve decent roll-out hitting a fade shape.

That disclosure shouldn't be that disturbing. I know the figures that get bandied about - but I think that's plenty to play a decent level of recreational/club golf. You should be much more concerned that you have a factory shaft in your driver!

Factory shafts aren't always bad. My VR 2 Pro has a Project X shaft which is pretty good. Though I agree, being consistently at 250-260 is more than good enough for most courses if you aren't playing from the tips. In all honesty there's no reason I should hit driver on most par 4s on any of my local courses, but right now I don't have anything between driver and 4 iron besides a crappy 3 hybrid which isn't consistent for me. I have an 18* VR 2 Pro hybrid coming this week that should give me more flexibility from the tee though.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by inthecup

I am not a long hitter. With driver 250-260 is all I am going to get with a well struck shot.  I can swing faster but "bad things happen"

My normal not quite perfectly struck drive is 230-240 ( honesty can be disturbing on an Internet forum, I apologize if some find it disturbing.)

Anyway I have been working on my consistency and distance.  I am pretty sure based on launch monitors that I hit up on the ball.

I tee it so a standard 2-1/4" tee is barely in the ground.  I am working on an in to in push draw.  When I hit that well I get good distance and it is very playable.  The more inside I am on the downswing the better I am able to eliminate the left side of the course.   What I do not get is much roll. The balls peak height is 30 yards (again launch monitor data and it sure looks that way). If I have draw spin should I get some roll? My ball usually leaves a big mark in the fairway but does not back up it just does not go forward much.

I get this launch with an 8.5 degree G20 driver with a factory stiff shaft. My swing speed is in the mid to upper 90's last I checked which was a few months ago. My spin was around 2500 rpm. I also surmise that when I hit the ball high on the face it goes further.   You can tell because it does not feel like the center of the clubface but the ball really flies I assume by decreased spin.

I am comfortable with the high ball flight and I am pretty sure with my swing speed and the distance I get that I am not putting a huge amount of backspin but there are doubts!

There is only one spin axis on a ball. Its oriented i believe close to the D-Plane, i can't remember if that's right or not.

But what this means is, that the spin on the ball is effected by the path of the club, and how the clubface is oriented. So when you hit a ball the spin always has backspin, meaning the a point on the top of the ball is rotating towards you as it travels away from you. What causes curve is if that vertical axis is tilted left or right. Meaning the point is now to the right, it will rotate towards you and down to the left.

Basically what causes a ball to land soft is entry height and backspin. Backspin will effect entry height as well. More spin will mean a steeper angle, so its a double wammy.

You should be getting decent amount of roll if your RPM is 2500, that's pretty solid. My guess is you think you should get more roll than you are.

Also roll is hard to tell, launch monitors will give you an idea, but is just an algorithm. Real world conditions are much different. If you happen to catch the ball on a slope, one facing you or away from you will have significant difference. I play this course, the landing for my ball is at this big hill down. The slope is pretty steep. If the tees are back a bit, my drive will loose about 30 yards. So 5 yards of tee back, made me loose 30 yards of distance on the ball, just because of landing conditions. If i can fly that hill, the ball will roll a long way.

30 yards in the air, isn't bad for ball height, it might be a bit to high for your ball speed. I know pro's get the ball close to 90-100 feet in the air, or close to 30 yards. But they are hitting the ball 15-20 mph faster.

As for ball flights,

Push draws and pull fades should go about the same distance, pull fades will roll a bit more because they are hit with a more closed clubface, so the launch angle is down a bit and the spin is reduced a bit. Pull draws will roll out the most, while push fades will roll out the least. Assuming same landing area.

[mdl]

Just a note in case it wasn't a typo.

You can not hit a push draw if you actually have an in-to-in club path.  That path means your club head is traveling exactly parallel to the target line at impact, so the only possible shots are pull draw (face closed to target/path line), straight (face square to target/path line), or push fade (face open to target/path line).  For a push draw you need an in-to-out club path at impact with the face between the club path and target line (so also open to the target line, but less open than the in-to-out club path).

[inthecup]

Originally Posted by mdl

Just a note in case it wasn't a typo.

You can not hit a push draw if you actually have an in-to-in club path.  That path means your club head is traveling exactly parallel to the target line at impact, so the only possible shots are pull draw (face closed to target/path line), straight (face square to target/path line), or push fade (face open to target/path line).  For a push draw you need an in-to-out club path at impact with the face between the club path and target line (so also open to the target line, but less open than the in-to-out club path).

In actuality I guess I am going for a push draw.  If I hit the ball with a high follow through I get a straight push.  The ball flies far but it is a push and it goes typically goes straight .  If I lower my follow through I get a draw on the ball. To me a lower follow through makes it feel like after impact the club path goes back to in earlier.

What I should really do it skip the draw, line up facing left and hit the big push.  It is a comfortable swing for me and reasonably consistent.  That alignment bothers me for some reason.  I think it might remind me of my slicing days and I don't want to go back there.  It is also different than my iron shot shape which is a draw.

Does it make sense to hit a big push, what will the draw add?  With such a high ball flight probably not much.

[inthecup]

Originally Posted by birlyshirly

Given that you have a choice of driver head lofts, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to achieve decent roll-out hitting a fade shape.

That disclosure shouldn't be that disturbing. I know the figures that get bandied about - but I think that's plenty to play a decent level of recreational/club golf. You should be much more concerned that you have a factory shaft in your driver!

I think Ping is run by the engineers and the marketing department does a great job of selling what the engineers come up with.  I think their stock shafts are probably some of the best stock ones out there for no other reason that I think that is how they think.  Refusing to follow the adjustable hosel trend because it conflicts with their thinking on weight distribution.

I do plan on getting fit over the winter to see if I can get some advantage from a non stock shaft and reevaluate the loft.  My swing has changed more in the last 12 months then in the prior 12 years and all for the better.

[birlyshirly]

Factory shafts aren't always bad.

I agree. But exaggerated driving distance and disdain for factory shafts are the death and taxes of internet golf discussion.;-)

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by birlyshirly

I agree. But exaggerated driving distance and disdain for factory shafts are the death and taxes of internet golf discussion.

Guess that makes me an oddball for not exaggerating my driving distance and not having disdain for factory shafts. Such is life for me.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by inthecup

In actuality I guess I am going for a push draw.  If I hit the ball with a high follow through I get a straight push.  The ball flies far but it is a push and it goes typically goes straight .  If I lower my follow through I get a draw on the ball.  To me a lower follow through makes it feel like after impact the club path goes back to in earlier.

What I should really do it skip the draw, line up facing left and hit the big push.  It is a comfortable swing for me and reasonably consistent.  That alignment bothers me for some reason.  I think it might remind me of my slicing days and I don't want to go back there.  It is also different than my iron shot shape which is a draw.

Does it make sense to hit a big push, what will the draw add?  With such a high ball flight probably not much.

I actually just switched to a 10.5 Anser driver from an 8.5 that I had tuned to 9.  I like that you do not have to feel like you are forcing the hitting up on the ball so much with the higher loft.  I am actually getting better distance out of it so far as well with the higher loft, and the misses seem to be lessened as well.  That does make sense that that pulling the hands through lower would cause more of a draw.  Mike made a video about this.  That has the same effect for me with hitting draws.  I prefer though to open up a bit and hit a high straight/tight fade push myself.  I get more distance and am much more consistent with this.

[inthecup]

Originally Posted by cipher

I actually just switched to a 10.5 Anser driver from an 8.5 that I had tuned to 9.  I like that you do not have to feel like you are forcing the hitting up on the ball so much with the higher loft.  I am actually getting better distance out of it so far as well with the higher loft, and the misses seem to be lessened as well.  That does make sense that that pulling the hands through lower would cause more of a draw.  Mike made a video about this.  That has the same effect for me with hitting draws.  I prefer though to open up a bit and hit a high straight/tight fade push myself.  I get more distance and am much more consistent with this.

When you say open up are you aiming left (assuming you are a righty)?  As I write this down it makes me think that is my go to shot.  I don't think a draw is going to add much.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by inthecup

When you say open up are you aiming left (assuming you are a righty)?  As I write this down it makes me think that is my go to shot.  I don't think a draw is going to add much.

Yes, and I don't feel that a draw adds any distance for me either with the driver.  I think it is less, as I hit it lower in generally soft conditions.