November 22, 1963

[iacas]

The odds of this conspiracy being kept secret this long are higher than the odds of him being lucky that day. Much higher.

I think that's incredibly naive. I think the government has kept a ton of things from people, including good things (like terrorist attacks successfully thwarted, etc.).

I also think you're just wrong - several people have claimed to have been part of or known about a conspiracy to assassinate JFK. Hundreds. It's not like there's been no talk of it. There's a bunch. The JFK movie with Costner was hyperbolic, but it had a reasonably firm handle on the facts (it went too far into whether the pictures were real, for one example - they've been verified as authentic by countless experts, plus the wife's testimony). I haven't read this page but skimming it seems to demonstrate what I'm talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories .

[cipher]

Everything about a second shooter is pretty circumstantial IMO. The difference between an average marksman and a great one at that distance can probably be measures in cm. It was a pretty easy shot.

[iacas]

It was a pretty easy shot.

Uhm…? Okay?

I'm not going to agree with you on that one, and I am someone who has hunted, and shot tons of targets at 100, 200, etc. yards, both with and without scopes, prone, kneeling, offhand, etc. with far better rifles than the Carcano. We used to shoot groundhogs at 200-300 yards for farmers and they're awfully small at that distance, but we also had tens of seconds to wait for the shot.

[cipher]

Uhm…? Okay? I'm not going to agree with you on that one, and I am someone who has hunted, and shot tons of targets at 100, 200, etc. yards, both with and without scopes, prone, kneeling, offhand, etc. with far better rifles than the Carcano. We used to shoot groundhogs at 200-300 yards for farmers and they're awfully small at that distance, but we also had tens of seconds to wait for the shot.

I will have to disagree as well. Elevated position, target moving almost directly away, and less than 100 yards. I can't remember if he was using FMJ rounds but at that time probably, and it would explain why the bullet through the back did what it did compared to a HP round.

[iacas]

It wasn't straight away - it was up too. It was a small moving target with open sights under pressure and out of practice. It might be an easy shot for a trained sniper under very little pressure, none of which describes Oswald. That the bullet was found on the gurney AND intact is odd. The one that only hit the skull was completely disintegrated.

[cipher]

It wasn't straight away - it was up too. It was a small moving target with open sights under pressure and out of practice. It might be an easy shot for a trained sniper under very little pressure, none of which describes Oswald. That the bullet was found on the gurney AND intact is odd. The one that only hit the skull was completely disintegrated.

Not sure what you mean about up. I will stick to at least the first shot at around 80-85 yards in the back was his. I still lean towards the head being his as well, but you are right in that at over 2100 fps FMJ should not disintegrate. If that is actually correct.

[iacas]

Not sure what you mean about up. I will stick to at least the first shot at around 80-85 yards in the back was his. I still lean towards the head being his as well, but you are right in that at over 2100 fps FMJ should not disintegrate. If that is actually correct.

Up. The direction in the opposite direction of down. If you were to take a picture of Kennedy's head at point A and then again from the same position and with the same field of vision at point B some time later, his head would have moved UP in the picture.

These two screenshots were taken half a second apart (spliced together):

And no, that car was likely not going only 15 MPH. I'm aware of that. :)

If you "lean towards" the head shot being his as well then you're not fully convinced he was the only shooter. Which is where I am as well - I'm not convinced there was more to it, but I'm not convinced he was the only player in the game, either. Too many loose ends. Too many inconsistencies. Too much cover-up. Too much that just doesn't sit right.

[cipher]

Yes I get up vs down, but did not know in what sense you were talking about it. Thanks for the lesson though. I thought his head was tipped forward at the time of that shot which would make it appear that way. I will have to watch it again, it has been a while.

[iacas]

I thought his head was tipped forward at the time of that shot which would make it appear that way.

Huh? I'm responding to the part where you said his head was moving " almost directly away " from Oswald. It was also moving up in Oswald's field of vision. He was firing on a moving target, not one staying still in his field of vision as a target moving "almost directly away" would be.

[cipher]

Huh? I'm responding to the part where you said his head was moving "[COLOR=181818]almost directly away[/COLOR]" from Oswald. It was also moving up in Oswald's field of vision. He was firing on a moving target, not one staying still in his field of vision as a target moving "almost directly away" would be.

Ok I was confusing what you were saying with point of entry vs exit. That would be a very likely explanation to why the first shot was low then as well. Re-acquiring and adjusting to the target I think is easier at that range with open sights as well. I put about 70% on him being the only shooter. ;)

[iacas]

I put about 70% on him being the only shooter. ;)

I don't have a number, but it's not less than 50%. :)

[cipher]

I don't have a number, but it's not less than 50%. :)

Ha ha nice! :)

[Golfingdad]

I think that's incredibly naive. I think the government has kept a ton of things from people, including good things (like terrorist attacks successfully thwarted, etc.). I also think you're just wrong - several people have claimed to have been part of or known about a conspiracy to assassinate JFK. Hundreds. It's not like there's been no talk of it. There's a bunch. The JFK movie with Costner was hyperbolic, but it had a reasonably firm handle on the facts (it went too far into whether the pictures were real, for one example - they've been verified as authentic by countless experts, plus the wife's testimony). I haven't read this page but skimming it seems to demonstrate what I'm talking about: [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories[/URL] .

Entirely possible. :). I've been wrong before (once that I can recall ;)) and I've been correctly accused of being naive before as well. :)

[teamroper60]

It wasn't straight away - it was up too. It was a small moving target with open sights under pressure and out of practice. It might be an easy shot for a trained sniper under very little pressure, none of which describes Oswald.

That the bullet was found on the gurney AND intact is odd. The one that only hit the skull was completely disintegrated.

Actually, it had a 4x scope on it, which according to an FBI marksman who fired it, was off by several inches.

The general was sitting in a stationary chair, yet Oswald hits a wooden frame of the window from 100 feet and we are expected to believe he was able to hit a moving target from much farther away?  And as I pointed out earlier, that shot was not a true straight away shot.   It was a shot from an elevated position at a target that was moving up the sight picture (edit: I see Eric clearly pointed this out above).  You also have to account for bullet trajectory (drop).   Not to mention he only had the head, neck and shoulder area as a target.   I was trained as a police sniper and can tell you, even taking the time factor out of the equation and allowing for the slow speed of the motorcade, hitting the shot Oswald had one time is NOT as easy as you think, let alone two out of three.

A lot is made out of Oswald holding the classification of "marksman".   "Marksman" is the lowest skilled shooter ranking and according to Marine Corps order 3574, every Marine is expected to attain it.  Furthermore Oswald attained that ranking using either an M1 Garand or an M14.  Both of those rifles are semi-autos.  The rifle he purportedly used to kill Kennedy was a cheaply made bolt action.   While the basic skills necessary to fire both types are the same (sight alignment, trigger press, breath control, etc..) the action is different and requires a different movements to chamber the next round, let alone do it fluidly so you can get back on target quickly (just the difference between working  a cheap bolt action vs. a well made one is pretty drastic).  So I believe too much is made out of Oswald's supposed prowess with a rifle.

I also disagree that the odds of other conspirators keeping their mouths shut is low.   We still don't know how or who killed Jimmy Hoffa or where he (or even parts of him) is buried.   If everybody is gonna talk eventually, then why don't we know more about his murder?  The reason, I believe is because keeping your mouth shut about the murders you have committed is kind of a requirement for a successful hitman.   As I have said many times, we only catch the stupid criminals.

[Golfingdad]

Actually, it had a 4x scope on it, which according to an FBI marksman who fired it, was off by several inches. The general was sitting in a stationary chair, yet Oswald hits a wooden frame of the window from 100 feet and we are expected to believe he was able to hit a moving target from much farther away?  And as I pointed out earlier, that shot was not a true straight away shot.   It was a shot from an elevated position at a target that was moving up the sight picture (edit: I see Eric clearly pointed this out above).  You also have to account for bullet trajectory (drop).   Not to mention he only had the head, neck and shoulder area as a target.   I was trained as a police sniper and can tell you, even taking the time factor out of the equation and allowing for the slow speed of the motorcade, hitting the shot Oswald had one time is NOT as easy as you think, let alone two out of three.  A lot is made out of Oswald holding the classification of "marksman".   "Marksman" is the lowest skilled shooter ranking and according to Marine Corps order 3574, every Marine is expected to attain it.  Furthermore Oswald attained that ranking using either an M1 Garand or an M14.  Both of those rifles are semi-autos.  The rifle he purportedly used to kill Kennedy was a cheaply made bolt action.   While the basic skills necessary to fire both types are the same (sight alignment, trigger press, breath control, etc..) the action is different and requires a different movements to chamber the next round, let alone do it fluidly so you can get back on target quickly.  So I believe too much is made out of Oswald's supposed prowess with a rifle. I also disagree that the odds of other conspirators keeping their mouths shut is low.   We still don't know how or who killed Jimmy Hoffa or where he (or even parts of him) is buried.   If everybody is gonna talk eventually, then why don't we know more about his murder?  The reason, I believe is because keeping your mouth shut about the murders you have committed is kind of a requirement for a successful hitman.   As I have said many times, we only catch the stupid criminals.

Interesting. Btw, for the record, when I used the term "marksman" I didn't even know it was a title. I just simply used it to mean generically "someone proficient with a gun." I'll stop now with this thread though, cuz I really have very little info on this. I don't definitively think Oswald acted alone, but the lack of evidence showing otherwise has always had me leaning that way. I'll go with cipher and his 70% ;)

[iacas]

Actually, it had a 4x scope on it, which according to an FBI marksman who fired it, was off by several inches.

Pretty sure it was side-mounted, and at < 100 yards, you don't need a scope and it would just slow you down. From what I can tell. The rest of your post, fine… just wanted to respond to that bit. And to quote this as a show of agreement:

As I have said many times, we only catch the stupid criminals.

[iacas]

Ordered this book on my Kindle today. I'll probably get around to reading it in a year or two.

[cipher]

Very disturbing but in looking at the video again, the head shot if there was a second shooter likely came from a similar rear position as well.