Hard Cards and the Rules of Golf

[Ignorant]

Good lord why do we always have to get into these circular battles?  Is this now the US against Finland in the Golf Rules war?  You are reading what isn't there.  You are making your own interpretation of a simple statement that Rule 15 will be enforced.

I already said that they phrased it poorly, but they were just saying that you can only substitute a ball without penalty if done as allowed under Rule 15-2.  They are saying nothing about a breach of the hard card.  They are not waiving the penalty if a substitution is made when not allowed.  They are simply placing particular emphasis on following Rule 15.

I don't believe that you commit a breach of a hard card.  You can breach a condition of competition.  You can breach a local rule.  You can breach a rule of golf.  This point on the hard card changes none of that.

This is my last word in this argument.  There is no discrepancy.  None.  Zero, zip, nada.

Fourputt, Hard Card is a part of the CoC and/or LR's. If a player acts against HC he will be penalized. Why else HC would exist? For amusement?

AFA 15-1 is concerned, why not write the Rule as it is instead of a modification? I cannot see any benefit to anyone there, quite on the contrary. The text in HC gives (at least to me) an impression that you are in breach of that particular part of CoC if you substitute your ball in play when not permitted. What possible reason can there be for the authors of that HC not to write the Rule 15-1 as it is??

[Ignorant]

Since you dragged me into it, albeit inadvertently, I'll offer my opinion. I do believe that Committees in charge of competitions do have a responsibility in educating participants in the Rules of golf. Pointing out practices which they believe are common, and violations of Rules, only makes good sense. Of course, it must be done within reason, and an extra line or two on a single sheet of paper is, imo, within reason.

This is an issue we have discussed a lot amongst my colleagues and other people being involved with organizing competitions. On the Tours there is the Hard Card containing specific Local Rules valid in the entire country and other Comditions of Competitions, such as use of DMD's, no putting on PG's between holes, etc. These are valid for every single competition on those Tours and this HC is distributed to the players in the beginning of the season and they are supposed to have studied it. If they don't that is their problem.

Then come the Local Rules of individual competition courses which may change from day to day. In my experience less than 5% of the competitiors read these LR's and one of the reasons is that in many cases there is just too much text so they do not bother not to mention that in some competitions these are given to the players by the starter and players do not even have time to read them. Taking this into concideration those LR's should contain only things that are not said elsewhere, i.e. special conditions/Rules that only apply on that particular course.

I can understand the urge to print regularly breached Rules in the LR's or CoC's but as I already pointed out that only increases the amount of text to be read AND digested resulting in competitors not reading even those that are truly necessary for the competition at hand. Furthermore, if a regular Rule is added amongst the Local Rules people soon will begin to think that Rule is a Local Rule and once it is missing from the LR's of another course they are mislead. One valid example is R24-2 regarding roads and paths. It is way too common for the players to ask for a ruling if they are allowed to take a free drop from a constructed road in a competition where there is no mentioning of the issue in the LR's. So much for the education...

P.S. A friend of mine organized a small friendly competition some years ago. As the last item of the Local Rules he had written that regardless of the number of strokes taken during the play of the last hole the player is entitled to mark birdie as their score for the round. One single person in the entire competition had a birdie on that hole...

[ColinL]

That reminds me, far from the world of golf, of the occasion when I and many others were caught out by a 20 question quiz paper which started as all good exam papers should with the bold instruction READ ALL THE QUESTIONS BEFORE ANSWERING.

Having laboriously worked through 19 questions, we reached the last which read, "You should only answer question 1."

[rogolf]

This is an issue we have discussed a lot amongst my colleagues and other people being involved with organizing competitions. On the Tours there is the Hard Card containing specific Local Rules valid in the entire country and other Comditions of Competitions, such as use of DMD's, no putting on PG's between holes, etc. These are valid for every single competition on those Tours and this HC is distributed to the players in the beginning of the season and they are supposed to have studied it. If they don't that is their problem. Then come the Local Rules of individual competition courses which may change from day to day. In my experience less than 5% of the competitiors read these LR's and one of the reasons is that in many cases there is just too much text so they do not bother not to mention that in some competitions these are given to the players by the starter and players do not even have time to read them. Taking this into concideration those LR's should contain only things that are not said elsewhere, i.e. special conditions/Rules that only apply on that particular course. I can understand the urge to print regularly breached Rules in the LR's or CoC's but as I already pointed out that only increases the amount of text to be read AND digested resulting in competitors not reading even those that are truly necessary for the competition at hand. Furthermore, if a regular Rule is added amongst the Local Rules people soon will begin to think that Rule is a Local Rule and once it is missing from the LR's of another course they are mislead. One valid example is R24-2 regarding roads and paths. It is way too common for the players to ask for a ruling if they are allowed to take a free drop from a constructed road in a competition where there is no mentioning of the issue in the LR's. So much for the education... P.S. A friend of mine organized a small friendly competition some years ago. As the last item of the Local Rules he had written that regardless of the number of strokes taken during the play of the last hole the player is entitled to mark birdie as their score for the round. One single person in the entire competition had a birdie on that hole...

Yes, the problem of lack of education on the Rules has been identified, and your post only confirms that as an issue. However, the problem needs to be addressed, not ignored or considered "too big", and I consider that the organizing Committees of competitions must be part of the solution. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. The organizing Committees need to take a bite.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogolf

Since you dragged me into it, albeit inadvertently, I'll offer my opinion. I do believe that Committees in charge of competitions do have a responsibility in educating participants in the Rules of golf. Pointing out practices which they believe are common, and violations of Rules, only makes good sense. Of course, it must be done within reason, and an extra line or two on a single sheet of paper is, imo, within reason.

This is an issue we have discussed a lot amongst my colleagues and other people being involved with organizing competitions. On the Tours there is the Hard Card containing specific Local Rules valid in the entire country and other Comditions of Competitions, such as use of DMD's, no putting on PG's between holes, etc. These are valid for every single competition on those Tours and this HC is distributed to the players in the beginning of the season and they are supposed to have studied it. If they don't that is their problem.

Then come the Local Rules of individual competition courses which may change from day to day. In my experience less than 5% of the competitiors read these LR's and one of the reasons is that in many cases there is just too much text so they do not bother not to mention that in some competitions these are given to the players by the starter and players do not even have time to read them. Taking this into concideration those LR's should contain only things that are not said elsewhere, i.e. special conditions/Rules that only apply on that particular course.

I can understand the urge to print regularly breached Rules in the LR's or CoC's but as I already pointed out that only increases the amount of text to be read AND digested resulting in competitors not reading even those that are truly necessary for the competition at hand. Furthermore, if a regular Rule is added amongst the Local Rules people soon will begin to think that Rule is a Local Rule and once it is missing from the LR's of another course they are mislead. One valid example is R24-2 regarding roads and paths. It is way too common for the players to ask for a ruling if they are allowed to take a free drop from a constructed road in a competition where there is no mentioning of the issue in the LR's. So much for the education...

P.S. A friend of mine organized a small friendly competition some years ago. As the last item of the Local Rules he had written that regardless of the number of strokes taken during the play of the last hole the player is entitled to mark birdie as their score for the round. One single person in the entire competition had a birdie on that hole...

Anyone who plays in a competition and fails to know the rules is a fool.  Apparently there were a lot of fools in that tournament.

As to your previous post, a player is still not being penalized against the hard card.  Regardless of whether the item on the hard card is a CoC, a LR, or a Rule of Golf, he is being penalized against the source, not the hard card.  All the hard card does is point out what rules and conditions will be in effect for the competition.  Would it have made more sense for them to just say that Rule 15 will be in effect in its entirety?  Sure (and I would have done it differently too), but they didn't and most who read it will get the point anyway.

You talk down at me as if I'm an idiot.  I was in a tournament club for 22 years.  I served on the board of directors as Rules chairman and on many tournament committees.  I played in, organized, and adjudicated more than 100 tournaments.  I served as a state level Rules official for the Colorado Golf Association.  I know exactly what goes into organizing and operating a competition.  I know what a hard card is, what a daily information and pin sheet is, what a condition of competition is, what a local rule is, and how they are enforced.  Despite all of that I'm not always right, and when I'm not, I will gladly admit it.  In this case I know what I'm talking about.  Please keep this in mind the next time you want to go to war with me.

[Ignorant]

You talk down at me as if I'm an idiot.  I was in a tournament club for 22 years.  I served on the board of directors as Rules chairman and on many tournament committees.  I played in, organized, and adjudicated more than 100 tournaments.  I served as a state level Rules official for the Colorado Golf Association.  I know exactly what goes into organizing and operating a competition.  I know what a hard card is, what a daily information and pin sheet is, what a condition of competition is, what a local rule is, and how they are enforced.  Despite all of that I'm not always right, and when I'm not, I will gladly admit it.  In this case I know what I'm talking about.  Please keep this in mind the next time you want to go to war with me.

So if you know you are not wrong things are as you say they are? I cannot imagine how you can ever be wrong if you always know when you are wrong.

Fourputt, I don't care how many years you have been doing whatever and where, that does not make your opininion more right. It is the substance that counts, not the years behind words. Obviously we have a different set of rules to go by in tournaments but that's ok. I am sure the winner is found in both cases, but that was not the issue, was it? In my country any breach against HC is penalized. It is strange it is different in yours.

For an experienced and senior guy you seem to have a bit of a temper. Don't let that blur your judgement.

[Ignorant]

Yes, the problem of lack of education on the Rules has been identified, and your post only confirms that as an issue. However, the problem needs to be addressed, not ignored or considered "too big", and I consider that the organizing Committees of competitions must be part of the solution.

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. The organizing Committees need to take a bite.

Here we have a difference of opinion. IMO the task of a Committee is to organize the event, set the frames to it and enforce the Rules (so to say) during the event. Educating competitors in Rules is not Committee's task, not more than teaching them how to swing a club.

It is the clubs' responsibility to educate their own members and that is a big challenge as well. I do that in my club, one bite at a time. Well, one lesson at a time.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignorant

So if you know you are not wrong things are as you say they are? I cannot imagine how you can ever be wrong if you always know when you are wrong.

Fourputt, I don't care how many years you have been doing whatever and where, that does not make your opininion more right. It is the substance that counts, not the years behind words. Obviously we have a different set of rules to go by in tournaments but that's ok. I am sure the winner is found in both cases, but that was not the issue, was it? In my country any breach against HC is penalized. It is strange it is different in yours.

For an experienced and senior guy you seem to have a bit of a temper. Don't let that blur your judgement.

One more time.

The hard card says that a condition of the competition is that player must use the same brand and mode of ball for the entire round (the misnamed "one ball rule").   A player changes from a ProV1 to ProV1x between holes.  You say he violated the hard card.  I say he violated the one ball condition of the competition.  I say that because the hard card is NOT part of the Rules of Golf.  The definition of Rule never mentions"hard card".

Where do you see hard card in this definition?

Quote:

Rule Or Rules

The term “ Rule ’’ includes:

a. The Rules of Golf and their interpretations as contained in “Decisions on the Rules of Golf”;

b. Any Conditions of Competition established by the Committee under Rule 33-1 and Appendix I ;

c. Any Local Rules established by the Committee under Rule 33-8a and Appendix I ; and

d. The specifications on:

(i) clubs and the ball in Appendices II and III and their interpretations as contained in “A Guide to the Rules on Clubs and Balls”; and

(ii) devices and other equipment in Appendix IV .

Or in this rule?

Quote:

1-1 . General

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules .

Or this one?

Quote:

6-1 . Rules

The player and his caddie are responsible for knowing the Rules . During a stipulated round , for any breach of a Rule by his caddie , the player incurs the applicable penalty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogolf


Yes, the problem of lack of education on the Rules has been identified, and your post only confirms that as an issue. However, the problem needs to be addressed, not ignored or considered "too big", and I consider that the organizing Committees of competitions must be part of the solution.
How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. The organizing Committees need to take a bite.

Here we have a difference of opinion. IMO the task of a Committee is to organize the event, set the frames to it and enforce the Rules (so to say) during the event. Educating competitors in Rules is not Committee's task, not more than teaching them how to swing a club.

It is the clubs' responsibility to educate their own members and that is a big challenge as well. I do that in my club, one bite at a time. Well, one lesson at a time.

The question we are debating is not a club.  It's an amateur tour with a lot of different players in each event.  There is no club to stress education or coach them on the rules.  Most players in the US are not members of clubs.  Your argument is mostly irrelevant here.

Now I'm done.

[luu5]

The hard card says that a condition of the competition is that player must use the same brand and mode of ball for the entire round (the misnamed "one ball rule").   A player changes from a ProV1 to ProV1x between holes.  You say he violated the hard card.  I say he violated the one ball condition of the competition.  I say that because the hard card is NOT part of the Rules of Golf.  The definition of Rule never mentions"hard card".

The big problem with wrongly/badly written hard card is same as with wrongly/badly marked course. It is what the player goes with and plays, in that tournament. If it says you can pick your ball and carry it across the river, the player (if he read the HC) will do it. If the woods are marked as lateral hazards, the players will treat them like such. Even if it is against the RoG.

This is why there should not be any changes to actual wordings of the rules in HC, to eliminate the possibility of different interpretations.

[Ignorant]

One more time.

The hard card says that a condition of the competition is that player must use the same brand and mode of ball for the entire round (the misnamed "one ball rule").   A player changes from a ProV1 to ProV1x between holes.  You say he violated the hard card.  I say he violated the one ball condition of the competition.  I say that because the hard card is NOT part of the Rules of Golf.  The definition of Rule never mentions"hard card".

Where do you see hard card in this definition?

As you seem to be twisting things deliberately I cannot find motivation to set you straight. I believe luu5's post described the core of the issue.

[Asheville]

Sometimes we feel the need to translate English into English.

[Golfingdad]

Why do they have this in their HC:

Golf Ball/Rule 15-1:  A player must hole out with the ball played from the teeing ground, unless the ball is lost or out of bounds, or if the player substitutes another ball if permitted under rule 15-2.

Are they deliberately modifying Rule 15-1 or is this just an error? And if it is an error why did they see it necessary to repeat just this particular Rule?

The big problem with wrongly/badly written hard card is same as with wrongly/badly marked course. It is what the player goes with and plays, in that tournament. If it says you can pick your ball and carry it across the river, the player (if he read the HC) will do it. If the woods are marked as lateral hazards, the players will treat them like such. Even if it is against the RoG.

This is why there should not be any changes to actual wordings of the rules in HC, to eliminate the possibility of different interpretations.

This would make sense, however, the difference, as I understand it in this case, is one word.  And the one word doesn't lead to a discrepancy.  My hard card says "if" instead of "as," and that seems to be the thing that @Ignorant is annoyed by.  I just don't see an issue there.  Regardless of which word is there, in both cases they are still referencing Rule 15-2.

If I read "as permitted by Rule 15-2" I'm looking into the Rule book to see what 15-2 says.  If I read "if permitted by Rule 15-2" I'm looking into the rule book to see what 15-2 says.

@Fourputt had it right in an earlier posts when he said that all they're trying to do is help guys out on frequently misunderstood or misapplied rules.  I imagine sometime in the past the organizer of these events had an issue (or several) in regards to that specific rule, leading him to believe that it's a good idea to remind everybody.

It's like when you are driving in New York City and see signs on certain intersections telling you "don't block the box."

[Ignorant]

This would make sense, however, the difference, as I understand it in this case, is one word.  And the one word doesn't lead to a discrepancy.  My hard card says "if" instead of "as," and that seems to be the thing that @Ignorant is annoyed by.  I just don't see an issue there.  Regardless of which word is there, in both cases they are still referencing Rule 15-2.

If I read "as permitted by Rule 15-2" I'm looking into the Rule book to see what 15-2 says.  If I read "if permitted by Rule 15-2" I'm looking into the rule book to see what 15-2 says.

@Fourputt had it right in an earlier posts when he said that all they're trying to do is help guys out on frequently misunderstood or misapplied rules.  I imagine sometime in the past the organizer of these events had an issue (or several) in regards to that specific rule, leading him to believe that it's a good idea to remind everybody.

It's like when you are driving in New York City and see signs on certain intersections telling you "don't block the box."

Try reading the entire Rule 15-1:

A player must hole out with the ball played from the teeing ground, unless
the ball is lost or out of bounds or the player substitutes another ball, whether
or not substitution is permitted (see Rule 15-2). If a player plays a wrong ball,
see Rule 15-3.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

This would make sense, however, the difference, as I understand it in this case, is one word.  And the one word doesn't lead to a discrepancy.  My hard card says "if" instead of "as," and that seems to be the thing that @Ignorant is annoyed by.  I just don't see an issue there.  Regardless of which word is there, in both cases they are still referencing Rule 15-2.

If I read "as permitted by Rule 15-2" I'm looking into the Rule book to see what 15-2 says.  If I read "if permitted by Rule 15-2" I'm looking into the rule book to see what 15-2 says.

@Fourputt had it right in an earlier posts when he said that all they're trying to do is help guys out on frequently misunderstood or misapplied rules.  I imagine sometime in the past the organizer of these events had an issue (or several) in regards to that specific rule, leading him to believe that it's a good idea to remind everybody.

It's like when you are driving in New York City and see signs on certain intersections telling you "don't block the box."

Try reading the entire Rule 15-1:

A player must hole out with the ball played from the teeing ground, unless

the ball is lost or out of bounds or the player substitutes another ball, whether

or not substitution is permitted (see Rule 15-2). If a player plays a wrong ball,

see Rule 15-3.

You just aren't going to let it go are you.  It's never going to affect anything in your life.  The people who it pertains to will either read the hard card and know that they are being told to reference Rule 15, or they won't read it and possibly be subject to penalty at some indeterminate future time.

In any case we're really tired of your nitpicking.  All of this is Time to get this thread back on track.

[Golfingdad]

It's like when you are driving in New York City and see signs on certain intersections telling you "don't block the box."

Whoops.  I just realized that I started to write down a thought, and then quit midway through, leaving this nonsense to fend for itself.  What I was going to say, had I finished it, was that just because they decide that certain intersections are prone to gridlock, and thus they feel the need for the reminder, does not mean that it's OK to cause gridlock at any intersection without the warning.

Anyways, I had forgotten that we'd gone so far off topic (practicing during a tournament) so, my apologies.

[Ignorant]

You just aren't going to let it go are you.  It's never going to affect anything in your life.  The people who it pertains to will either read the hard card and know that they are being told to reference Rule 15, or they won't read it and possibly be subject to penalty at some indeterminate future time.

In any case we're really tired of your nitpicking.  All of this is     Time to get this thread back on track.

So it does not matter what is written in the Hard Card? Is that what you learned during your 22 years of this and that? Wow....

And who's 'we'? I thought you were only speaking for yourself. Besides my post was not for you, who already twice said you are done.

[Golfingdad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignorant

So it does not matter what is written in the Hard Card?

I think I finally figured out what it is you're saying.  My hard card says:

Quote:

Golf Ball/Rule 15-1: A player must hole out with the ball played from the teeing ground, unless the ball is lost or out of bounds, or if the player substitutes another ball if permitted under rule 15-2.

However, you are pointing out that the language is not consistent with the Rules.  It should say:

Quote:

A player must hole out with the ball played from the teeing ground , unless the ball is lost or out of bounds or the player substitutes another ball, whether or not substitution is permitted (see Rule 15-2 ). If a player plays a wrong ball , see Rule 15-3 .

The difference that bothers you being: "...if permitted under rule 15-2" replacing "..., whether or not a substitution is permitted (see Rule 15-2)."

The only problem that I can see being caused by this discrepancy is something like this:

A player unknowingly substitutes a ball illegally at some point during the hole, thus violating Rule 15-2.  He plays it once, making it the ball in play.  Another player notices the breach (after all, he can't possibly know because he's the one that voluntarily made the switch) and tells him he incurs a 2-stroke penalty.  However, neither of them know what happens next, so instead of checking the rule book directly, they see that the hard card specifically says that a player must hole out with a ball if permitted by Rule 15-2.  They already know that his ball was not permitted by Rule 15-2, therefore they make the assumption (remember, the hard card doesn't say what you are supposed to do with an illegally substituted ball at all) that since it says you have to hole out with a legally substituted ball, it must stand to reason that you can't hole out with an illegally substituted ball, so they agree that he needs to switch back, and that basically repeats the original infraction ... and now he has to add 4 strokes to his score for that hole.

Is that basically what you were thinking could happen?  I guess I (finally) get where you are coming from, however,

A) Somebody still has to know Rule 15-2 to know that it applies, and if they know rule 15-2, well, then they know rule 15-2, and it clearly says right in there that once you substitute a ball, illegally or not, it becomes the ball in play.

and B)They still have to make assumptions.  The hard card doesn't say what you do if you substitute a ball illegally so you have to be careless enough to not know the rule in the first place, and careless enough to not check with the actual rule book once it comes up, and just guess on your next course of action.  If you're that stupid then you probably deserve a 4 stroke penalty.

[rogolf]

A quote from one of Ignorant's earlier posts: "Here we have a difference of opinion. IMO the task of a Committee is to organize the event, set the frames to it and enforce the Rules (so to say) during the event. Educating competitors in Rules is not Committee's task." He's interested in enforcing the Rules, not helping competitors understand and apply the Rules. I'll give him some credit, he's consistent with that aged approach, even though I entirely disagree with it. Imo, the Committee, particularly the Rules officials, are there to help the competitors play within the Rules.