Promoting personal characteristics, political views, and products, among athletes in the public eye.

[iacas]

Science as taught in public schools is being stated as facts. This is the point where many of the Creationists object. Evolution is still a theory (although a very good one).

Please be careful when you say things like that.

Evolution is a fact. So you're either using the scientific word "theory" (which many people don't understand requires far more factual basis than we commonly associate with "theory"), or you're talking about "evolutionary creationism" or whatever you want to call "evolution from atoms" type primordial-sludge-level stuff.

The free will we were given allows us to use science to seek the truth. Science is only a tool that we can use to understand more of the world around us, and should not be taught as a replacement for Religion.

I think some people simply feel that there is no need to have religious beliefs at all. They aren't using science to "replace" religion, they feel that religion is simply the way people filled their lives with meaning in the absence of knowledge and understanding.

- Religion is becoming less and less popular.

- The smarter someone is, the less likely they are to be religious.

I'm citing those two things only because they speak to the last point - that religion was big in the days when they couldn't explain the sun, or plagues, and thought they were being punished by Gods or rewarded, or whatever. These days we can explain more and more of the world around us, and people are less and less religious.

I agree that homosexuality can be a physical characteristic you are born, but in many cases it is not. Just like some people are born without a specific gender. However, these are much more rare than we are currently being led to believe.

I think homosexuality has been shown to be far more frequently biological than a choice. Equating biological homosexuality to hermaphrodites or whatever you're talking about seems really disingenuous.

There are homosexuals in other species. Dolphins, monkeys, etc. Are they making a choice too? Or are they more likely to be guided by whatever their biology tells them to do?

Science is a means to prove or disprove anything tangible, but in many cases they are not provable.

And in many cases, things simply aren't provable yet. We've identified several genetic markers that speak to things that were previously thought to involve choice.

I'm not saying we don't have choices or free will… but I am saying that what we know now is likely a drop in the bucket of what's true. We know more now than ever, but it's still a drop in the bucket. Compare even what we know now about DNA to the decade after it was discovered.

The evidence for evolution is vast. The evidence on creationism is nonexistent. Using the theory excuse is a lame argument. Gravity is a theory. Does it not exist because it is theoretical? Creationist are demanding you think the way they do with no deviation. Science is constantly asking new questions even when answers are discovered.

QFT. Thanks.

Homosexuality is a deviant behavior, and the people of LOT لوط in arabic had the town they lived in lifted into the sky and then turned over and smashed back down by the Arch Angle Gabriel جبرائيل (Arabic Name) and they were eliminated accordingly.

It is impossible for me to meet in the middle with anyone on this as my belief is not up for discussion.  However, what I can do is let those people live their lives as they wish, as I will not  be held accountable.. Do I like them no.. Do I hate their behavior?  Yes.. Would I allow someone to teach my children that it is ok for Fred to have 2 dads or two moms?  No.. Will I go out of my way to bother these deviants?  No.. They are free to make what ever shitty decision they want to make, however I reserve my right to pass judgment on their deviant behavior and I will not be held hostage by the gay hollywood type who are looking to expand their gay circles around the US and around the world.

Go ahead guys and say what ever you want about me.. find out if I care?

So what you're saying is that if homosexuality is somehow proven to be genetic, and thus not a choice, you're simply going to plug your ears and hum a tune?

Bummer for you man.

---

FWIW, I consider myself a spiritual person, but I do not believe there's any one "god" out there, and I think the Bible may be the single biggest con in the history of mankind. But I consider myself spiritual - I think there's something we haven't yet figured out about how we think or how our minds work, or whether "souls" exist or not (I feel as though they do). Religion is just another form of spirituality, so I don't have any problems with people who are "religious" either, and I often discuss "spirituality" with them.

I do have a problem with people who are close-minded. But that's true regardless of the topic.

[mdl]

I just ask that we are not all assumed to be as such.

Yeah, fair enough.  My in-laws are Christian, most quite devout (i.e., missionaries on both sides).  They range from awesome to people with quite despicable social and cultural views.  I fully respect differences in religious belief with people who don't use it as a motivation to oppress others.

Originally Posted by cipher

I only try to follow and model myself after someone who had unconditional love towards all people. Most of the time I fail.

Haha.  Indeed.  I'm not Christian but I like to think I try to follow those kinds of teachings in my own way.  I surely fail most of the time as well.  Oh well, keep trying to get better I suppose...

[Abu3baid]

So what you're saying is that if homosexuality is somehow proven to be genetic, and thus not a choice, you're simply going to plug your ears and hum a tune?

Bummer for you man.

Nope you misunderstood what I was saying.  To me it really doesn't matter if it is a choice or it is genetic. I believe that people have a choice , and they either choose to do something or not.  Although, some deviants like child molesters for example will also claim that it is genetic that they find themselves looking to satisfy their desires with children, and it is interesting that no one here will try and justify that behavior will they?

So, I don't need to plug my ears, because I believe that everyone will have to answer for their behavior once they pass away.. The way I see it is I have my belief and they have theirs, I am saying that I will not bother them, but I will not accept them and I think that is my choice and I am free to make it.. It has nothing to do with being close minded, as someone can call you or others close minded for not accepting child molesters, or rapist or others who also say that they are genetically programmed to have that urge to satisfy their desires.

[Lihu]

Please be careful when you say things like that.

Evolution is a fact. So you're either using the scientific word "theory" (which many people don't understand requires far more factual basis than we commonly associate with "theory"), or you're talking about "evolutionary creationism" or whatever you want to call "evolution from atoms" type primordial-sludge-level stuff.

Yes, the intent is to use the scientific meaning of "theory". Evolution (in that regard) is still a theory, but a really good one. There are lots of things missing from the theory, and like you said science has not proven them "yet".  There are still so many other wonderful things that Science will discover.

Science and reason are tools for finding truths about the world (universe) around us. There are many things that science does not yet have an answer, and I am not trying to fill those voids with Religion. We need to delve deeper into science, the more we learn the more we appreciate what we have.

Faith is faith. What you believe is not always based upon a "need". Sometimes you choose to believe something, because it is what you want it to be.

[cipher]

Yeah, fair enough.  My in-laws are Christian, most quite devout (i.e., missionaries on both sides).  They range from awesome to people with quite despicable social and cultural views.  I fully respect differences in religious belief with people who don't use it as a motivation to oppress others. Haha.  Indeed.  I'm not Christian but I like to think I try to follow those kinds of teachings in my own way.  I surely fail most of the time as well.  Oh well, keep trying to get better I suppose...

Yeah good stuff. I look back and some of my most rewarding friendships have come from people with very different world views. I have always enjoyed open discussion with mutual respect about these things. If I believe something I should never fear to be challenged a little bit in it, otherwise why would I believe it? It is fun. :)

[iacas]

Nope you misunderstood what I was saying. To me it really doesn't matter if it is a choice or it is genetic.  I believe that people have a choice, and they either choose to do something or not.

I understood you perfectly. If someone is biologically homosexual, they don't have a choice. They're homosexual. They can't "choose" to be heterosexual.

Furthermore, comparing homosexuality to child molesters doesn't fly, IMO. Children don't have a choice and deserve protection. If two biologically gay men or women wish to spend their lives together, nobody needs "protecting."

Yes, the intent is to use the scientific meaning of "theory". Evolution (in that regard) is still a theory, but a really good one.

Then clarify, because as you know (or should know) "theory" in science doesn't mean what it means to 99.999% of people when you just say the word "theory."

There are lots of things missing from the theory, and like you said science has not proven them "yet".

No. Evolution exists. Again, I'm not talking about "primordial sludge, atoms-to-man" style evolution, but clearly evolution exists.

There are many things that science does not yet have an answer, and I am not trying to fill those voids with Religion.

I didn't say you were. I said that generally, that does occur.

Faith is faith. What you believe is not always based upon a "need". Sometimes you choose to believe something, because it is what you want it to be.

And sometimes they are religious and believe in God and the words in the Bible because it fills a hole for them or explains things that can't otherwise be explained. These things are becoming less commonplace. Science can explain what a plague is. Or a meteor. Or why your crops all died last year. People don't need religion to explain as much of the world as they once did.

[Ernest Jones]

Wow. You know, it's not very often that a thread in a golf forum can make me sad, but this one sure does. I'm very disappointed in some of the view points being expressed in here. I'll write more later but, wow, really guys? Edit* I took the time to skim through the thread and it's not as bad as I thought. It's really just @Abu3baid that I'm disappointed in, really ignorant viewpoint.

[iacas]

I'm going to close this thread.

I think we've had political discussions in the past that have been fine. We've even had religious conversations that, while contentious (usually only with a very few number of people), have been fine.

But when you mix both and add in homosexuality, apparently that's too much.

So, to avoid turning friends into enemies (overly dramatic but you get the idea), I think it's wise to close this thread. If you disagree, PM me.