Wrong Ball- place or drop?

[iacas]

Yes, I think we had a similar discussion with a hazard also.  I understand the part about an honest estimate, but being good at math, I would like to know what you are suppose to do when there are 2 spots that are equally likely- pick 1 or pick an average?

That doesn't happen. If the location is unknown, you choose what you and your fellow competitors agree is the best spot and drop there.

This is not as difficult as you continue to want to make it.

In this situation, they must have felt there was more than 1 possible location (possibly because of multiple divots being present) or a range of locations.  Did the referee have them drop as close as possible to 1 specific divot or in the middle of the range?  The answer to this question might shed some light on what the rest of us should be doing.

No. They must have felt the exact spot was unknown, so they made their best estimates and dropped. This includes "well your ball was a yard right of mine, so I'll drop here, and you drop a yard to the right." (Or whatever the relationship between the two balls were.)

Without clarification from the governing bodies

Clarification is unnecessary! It's right there, plainly written, in the rule.

Without clarification from the governing bodies, it seems that different players "best, honest estimate" may be point A (closer to the hole), point B (farther from the hole) or an average of the two.  While it doesn't make much of a difference if we are talking about a few yards from the fairway, it could be a big difference if a ball was stymied against a tree, but nobody knows if it was tree A or tree B (or in the case of a hazard where points A & B are a long distance apart).

Seriously?

For someone who spent so much time talking about how the rules should be "simpler" (and completely failing to meet the challenge presented to you in not substantially changing "golf" as we know it to create simpler rules), you're making things like this far more complex than they actually are .

[mvmac]

While it doesn't make much of a difference if we are talking about a few yards from the fairway, it could be a big difference if a ball was stymied against a tree, but nobody knows if it was tree A or tree B (or in the case of a hazard where points A & B are a long distance apart).

And what's the likelihood of hitting someone else's ball that is stymied against a tree?

[iacas]

And what's the likelihood of hitting someone else's ball that is stymied against a tree?

And then failing to remember which tree you were behind…

About six things that basically never happen would have to happen for that to be a valid concern, and even if they all did happen, guess what the answer is, @MEfree - you make your best effort, drop, and move on. Nobody's going to be sentenced to death if you're off a little bit having made your best effort(s).

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You make your best, honest estimate.  If it's reasonable, you get input from your fellow competitors.  That is all you can do.   It's very similar to determining the point where a ball last crossed into a hazard.  When the ball is 100 feet in the air and curving when it crosses, you have no choice but to make you best estimate.

Yes, I think we had a similar discussion with a hazard also.  I understand the part about an honest estimate, but being good at math, I would like to know what you are suppose to do when there are 2 spots that are equally likely- pick 1 or pick an average?

In this situation, they must have felt there was more than 1 possible location (possibly because of multiple divots being present) or a range of locations.  Did the referee have them drop as close as possible to 1 specific divot or in the middle of the range?  The answer to this question might shed some light on what the rest of us should be doing.

Without clarification from the governing bodies, it seems that different players "best, honest estimate" may be point A (closer to the hole), point B (farther from the hole) or an average of the two.  While it doesn't make much of a difference if we are talking about a few yards from the fairway, it could be a big difference if a ball was stymied against a tree, but nobody knows if it was tree A or tree B (or in the case of a hazard where points A & B are a long distance apart).

As usual you are overthinking it.  Math has absolutely nothing to do with it.  You pick the most likely spot, then you live with it.  Forget averaging or probability.  Make a decision and do it.

Where it's possible, the rules are black and white, right and wrong.  Where that isn't possible, they allow the necessary flexibility to let the player play golf.

[Wansteadimp]

And what's the likelihood of hitting someone else's ball that is stymied against a tree?

Well... there's the old story about Tony Johnstone pretending his ball was stymied, getting Seve to confirm there was no animal scrapes or other reasons to get a free drop and then telling Seve to play it as it lied because it was his ball!

Back on topic surely its fairly easy for a pro and his caddie (or an amateur with a yardage device) to work backwards knowing what yardage they had to get within a reasonable distance from the original spot even if they can't identify the exact spot.

[MEfree]

And what's the likelihood of hitting someone else's ball that is stymied against a tree?

Stymied for a lefty is not necessarily stymied for a righty (or two righties playing different holes)

And then failing to remember which tree you were behind…

About six things that basically never happen would have to happen for that to be a valid concern, and even if they all did happen, guess what the answer is, @MEfree - you make your best effort, drop, and move on. Nobody's going to be sentenced to death if you're off a little bit having made your best effort(s).

True, nobody is going to hit the wrong ball next to a tree in a PGA Tour event, but I have played at some courses where someone from another hole has played my ball in some cases and picked it up in other cases and only given me the vaguest directions as to where they found the ball when I approached them.

As usual you are overthinking it.  Math has absolutely nothing to do with it.  You pick the most likely spot, then you live with it.  Forget averaging or probability.  Make a decision and do it.

Where it's possible, the rules are black and white, right and wrong.  Where that isn't possible, they allow the necessary flexibility to let the player play golf.

What part of the rule book leads you to believe you should pick the most likely spot even when that spot isn't much more likely than another spot?  Is there a decision on point?  While not exactly on point, this decision has a number of similarities and seems to take more of an averaging (or median) approach.

18-1/5

Ball Stolen by Outside Agency from Unknown Spot

Q. At a par-3 hole, part of the green and the adjoining area cannot be seen from the tee. In this unseen area are a bunker, fairway and a dry water hazard.

A player plays towards this obscured area and cannot tell where the ball comes to rest. When the players are near the green, they see a boy running away with a ball in his hand. The boy throws the ball back and the player identifies it as his ball.

The player is unable to determine from where to play his next stroke under Rule 18-1 . He does not know whether the ball was on the green, on the fairway or in one of the hazards.

How should he proceed?

A. As it was impossible to know where the ball should have been replaced under Rule 18-1 , the player should, in equity (Rule 1-4 ), drop the ball in an area which was neither the most, nor the least, favorable of the various areas where it was equally possible that the ball originally lay.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

And what's the likelihood of hitting someone else's ball that is stymied against a tree?

Stymied for a lefty is not necessarily stymied for a righty (or two righties playing different holes)

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

And then failing to remember which tree you were behind…

About six things that basically never happen would have to happen for that to be a valid concern, and even if they all did happen, guess what the answer is, @MEfree - you make your best effort, drop, and move on. Nobody's going to be sentenced to death if you're off a little bit having made your best effort(s).

True, nobody is going to hit the wrong ball next to a tree in a PGA Tour event, but I have played at some courses where someone from another hole has played my ball in some cases and picked it up in other cases and only given me the vaguest directions as to where they found the ball when I approached them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

As usual you are overthinking it.  Math has absolutely nothing to do with it.  You pick the most likely spot, then you live with it.  Forget averaging or probability.  Make a decision and do it.

Where it's possible, the rules are black and white, right and wrong.  Where that isn't possible, they allow the necessary flexibility to let the player play golf.

What part of the rule book leads you to believe you should pick the most likely spot even when that spot isn't much more likely than another spot?  Is there a decision on point?  While not exactly on point, this decision has a number of similarities and seems to take more of an averaging (or median) approach.

18-1/5

Ball Stolen by Outside Agency from Unknown Spot

Q.At a par-3 hole, part of the green and the adjoining area cannot be seen from the tee. In this unseen area are a bunker, fairway and a dry water hazard.

A player plays towards this obscured area and cannot tell where the ball comes to rest. When the players are near the green, they see a boy running away with a ball in his hand. The boy throws the ball back and the player identifies it as his ball.

The player is unable to determine from where to play his next stroke under Rule 18-1. He does not know whether the ball was on the green, on the fairway or in one of the hazards.

How should he proceed?

A.As it was impossible to know where the ball should have been replaced under Rule 18-1, the player should, in equity (Rule 1-4), drop the ball in an area which was neither the most, nor the least, favorable of the various areas where it was equally possible that the ball originally lay.

Come on, get real.  If you played a stroke at a ball, you have a general idea of where it was.  The decision you quoted is for a case where you have no idea where the ball may have lain.  If a player can't come closer than that after actually playing a stroke at the ball, then he is either blind or too stupid to play golf.

[ColinL]

What part of the rule book leads you to believe you should pick the most likely spot even when that spot isn't much more likely than another spot?

Boy, you really do like to make the Rules much more difficult than they already are.   If I agonised over rulings as you do, I would never see the end of a refereeing shift.  I'd be stretchered off twitching and mumbling incoherently to the nearest psychiatric hospital.

Keep it simple.   If you pick the most likely spot, you've done the job - get on with dropping and playing.  That there were other places that were almost as likely is not going to bother anyone.  And if you had chosen one of those on the basis that it was the most likely, would anyone be troubled?  Just think of all the different ways in which the place we  drop a ball will be no more than best, honest estimation.  Can you be sure to any minute degree of accuracy where you ball last crossed the margin of a water hazard?  Does it worry you that when dropping a ball it can roll up to two club lengths on any radius of a semicircle from where it hit the course?  Best effort, honest effort to be as close as you can is, to my mind, all that matters.  Replacing is a different and precise matter.  But that's why dropping is the requirement when you cannot be precise.

[mvmac]

Stymied for a lefty is not necessarily stymied for a righty (or two righties playing different holes)

I guess I should clarify. There is no way I'm going to hit a wrong ball if it's stymied because I'm going to be checking it, praying to the golf gods that it's not mine!

True, nobody is going to hit the wrong ball next to a tree in a PGA Tour event, but I have played at some courses where someone from another hole has played my ball in some cases and picked it up in other cases and only given me the vaguest directions as to where they found the ball when I approached them.

You use the information given to you, your own estimate of where the shot went, check with the guys you're playing with, use some common sense and drop from there.

What other options do you have except "making your best effort"? If you can't determine the exact location, should you just quit and walk off the course?

[MEfree]

Come on, get real.  If you played a stroke at a ball, you have a general idea of where it was.  The decision you quoted is for a case where you have no idea where the ball may have lain.  If a player can't come closer than that after actually playing a stroke at the ball, then he is either blind or too stupid to play golf.

I have come across some pretty clueless golfers, but lets move on.

Regarding 18-1, let's suppose that a guy playing another hole picked up my ball which I am able to retrieve from him 100 yards away from where he picked it up.  He tells me generally where it was but not exactly.  From his description and my view of my shot, I have a good idea of a circle with a 3 yard radius where he picked up the ball from but can't be more precise than that.  Do I drop or place?

[MEfree]

Got the answer to my last question by reading the entirety of rule 18- it seems a drop would be correct.

Rule 18

Ball At Rest Moved

Definitions

All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section.

18-1 . By Outside Agency

If a ball at rest is moved by an outside agency , there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced.

Note: It is a question of fact whether a ball has been moved by an outside agency . In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that an outside agency has moved the ball. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must play the ball as it lies or, if the ball is not found, proceed under Rule 27-1 .

(Player’s ball at rest moved by another ball – see Rule 18-5 )

18-2 . By Player, Partner, Caddie Or Equipment

a . General

Except as permitted by the Rules , when a player’s ball is in play , if

(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies :

• lifts or moves the ball,

• touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing the ball), or

• causes the ball to move , or

(ii) the equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,

the player incurs a penalty of one stroke .

If the ball is moved , it must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

Under the Rules there is no penalty if a player accidentally causes his ball to move in the following circumstances:

• In searching for a ball covered by sand, in the replacement of Loose Impediments moved in a Hazard while finding or identifying a ball, in probing for a ball lying in water in a Water Hazard or in searching for a ball in an Obstruction or an Abnormal Ground Condition – Rule 12-1
• In repairing a Hole plug or ball mark – Rule 16-1c
• In measuring – Rule 18-6
• In lifting a ball under a Rule – Rule 20-1
• In placing or replacing a ball under a Rule – Rule 20-3a
• In removing a Loose Impediment on the Putting Green – Rule 23-1
• In removing movable Obstructions – Rule 24-1

b . Ball Moving After Address

If a player’s ball in play moves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke ), the player is deemed to have moved the ball and incurs a penalty of one stroke .

The ball must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

Exception: If it is known or virtually certain that the player did not cause his ball to move , Rule 18-2b does not apply.

18-3 . By Opponent, Caddie Or Equipment In Match Play

a . During Search

If, during search for a player’s ball, an opponent , his caddie or his equipment, moves the ball, touches it or causes it to move , there is no penalty. If the ball is moved , it must be replaced.

b . Other Than During Search

If, other than during search for a player’s ball, an opponent , his caddie or his equipment, moves the ball, touches it purposely or causes it to move , except as otherwise provided in the Rules , the opponent incurs a penalty of one stroke . If the ball is moved , it must be replaced.

(Playing a wrong ball – see Rule 15-3 )

(Ball moved in measuring – see Rule 18-6 )

18-4 . By Fellow-Competitor, Caddie Or Equipment In Stroke Play

If a fellow-competitor , his caddie or his equipment, moves the player’s ball, touches it or causes it to move , there is no penalty. If the ball is moved , it must be replaced.

(Playing a wrong ball – see Rule 15-3 )

18-5 . By Another Ball

If a ball in play and at rest is moved by another ball in motion after a stroke , the moved ball must be replaced.

18-6 . Ball Moved In Measuring

If a ball or ball-marker is moved in measuring while proceeding under or in determining the application of a Rule , the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of measuring. Otherwise, the provisions of Rule 18-2a , 18-3b or 18-4 apply.

*PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:

Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

*If a player who is required to replace a ball fails to do so, or if he makes a stroke at a ball substituted under Rule 18 when such substitution is not permitted, he incurs the general penalty for breach of Rule 18 , but there is no additional penalty under this Rule.

Note 1: If a ball to be replaced under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted .

Note 2: If the original lie of a ball to be placed or replaced has been altered, see Rule 20-3b .

Note 3: If it is impossible to determine the spot on which a ball is to be placed or replaced, see Rule 20-3c .

[ColinL]

Got the answer to my last question by reading the entirety of rule 18- it seems a drop would be correct.

A drop would indeed be correct but now you know you can go straight to Rule 20-3c for your answer.  Less reading