My Swing (phillyk)

[phillyk]

All right, I finally got around to taking some videos.  I had a rough time last week.  I got to a point where my swing was really flat.  It had worked really well for a while, but that wore out, so now I'm back to finding something that works better.  Well, the obvious answer was don't swing flat.

So, that's what I've been working on the last week.  My take away feels weird, like my hands are low and the club is out in front of me.  But, from the following videos, it looks decent.  I've been going too far on the backswing for a long time but I've always managed to drop the club into the slot again on the down.  So I'm not going to mess a ton with that.  For now, I want to continue this better take away.  My grip and swing path thoughts are virtually the same as before.  But, now I'm transferring weight/pressure more than I had before.  As in, more centered hip turn, instead of a front load turn.  By doing this, I'm focusing on tempo more.  I need time to get my weight back to my left at impact.  I've also narrowed my stance quite a bit.  At least it feels like it.

I hit some really good shots today.  It's more about finding consistency, deciding how much draw to play and my specific aim point.  I only have 3 videos.  The first two are 7 irons, DTL and Face on.  The third is a Face on driver.  I took video of DTL driver, but I messed it up on the slow mo.

I still notice that I can't get my hips open enough at impact, but it feels better than it had.

Looking back at old videos, the main difference looks to be the more centered turn versus front load.  We'll see how this progresses.

[iacas]

Whether you've trained yourself to go "forward" so much during the backswing and stay forward during the downswing to counter the massive flip you have, or whether you've trained yourself to flip so much because you're so far forward… I don't know. I can't begin to know.

But those two things are your compensations.

First, camera angles, man. The DL view is poorly placed. Makes analysis difficult.

Here's what I'd tackle…

1. Setup

You're well left with the shoulders, well right with the feet and hips. You were a little worse at the Newport Cup, but this is still pretty bad.

2. The Entire Backswing

Because of the seventeen (slight exaggeration) loops and dipsy doodles the backswing makes, it has to be that long. Good luck shortening it. To shorten this backswing, you'd have to learn three entirely new compensations if you were to just "shorten it" to the image on the right.

So, I don't advise even doing that.

This even looks like it could be a serviceable position:

If you ignore the arrows that doesn't look too bad. The problem is, the golf swing isn't a picture, and the arrows indicate where your hands and the clubhead are moving in those frames, so they've built up momentum, and it's going in all the wrong directions - your hands are swinging further inside (gaining depth), and the clubhead is moving, at best, horizontally, or laterally, also gaining depth.

You could go the Eamonn Darcy way, or the Jim Furyk way, but even their swings don't have half as many compensations as you do:

From the top, those two move the club a bit laterally, while the hands primarily come down, and the club comes down pretty quickly afterward. It's a steep plane, for sure, but they shallow it quickly from the top and then BAM, the club comes downward.

From the top:

Note: I switched videos of Furyk because the clubhead wasn't visible on the right one:

Red dots trace the BOC, orange dots the SS.

As you can see, because you needed all that time to recover in the backswing from the various other bad backswing positions you hit, you end up swinging the club about 2' horizontally at the end of your backswing, and then moving the clubhead UP and LATERALLY, while your hands take a wider loop back to the "depth" side.

If you look at Furyk and Darcy, they don't swing their hands much deeper at all, and the clubhead moves laterally a little bit, and then begins coming DOWN. Your club is still hanging out up in the air, and is moving the complete wrong direction.

So anyway, the club gets incredibly far behind you.

It's moved so far laterally, that it has to. Your only hope from here, well to the inside, is to throw everything you've got OUT toward the golf ball. So that's what you do:

It would look a wee bit better, yes, if your camera angle was better, but that's still swinging well out to the right.

This move, having to just chuck everything out, inhibits or prevents you from rotating, because if you rotated from any of your downswing positions more than you have, well, it just wouldn't go well.

So, the lack of rotation from 5-8 leads to a high overtaking rate, which leads to misses left and right.

And that's just from down-the-line.

The face-on stuff is no less important, but probably something you're just going to have to deal with for now:

So we have a back ball position, leaning forward (not as much as in October), and then a flip that may be the cause or may be the effect, I don't know.

I suspect this is what's happened.

• You've always had this backswing where the club and your arm is coming from Hawaii (really, really far west, or "deep") because you gain so much depth with them the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the downswing.
• So you've always just "thrown" everything at the ball.
• This leads to a flip, a high ball, etc.
• So you learned to lean forward and play the ball back, and just rely on your natural good timing to get what you can out of it.

This is less likely but still possible:

• You've always leaned well forward and/or had a back ball position.
• You hit the ball low.
• Getting tired of hitting the ball low, you learn to sweep the ball and swing around yourself more, which has the effect of throwing and flipping the club, so you get some loft.

I would bet on the first, but again, either is possible. As are some others, but they're less likely, IMO.

---

As for how to fix it…? Wowee.

I'd clean up the backswing. Stop the sweet spot from going so far around you and then twisting over the top, like this (the white is the pretend club/clubhead):

From there, learn the feeling of your hands coming down while the clubhead gains minimal depth.

Like Furyk and Darcy.

You'll probably want to stand a bit closer to the ball, too.

[phillyk]

Thanks for the analysis. I really do appreciate it. Your first scenario is more likely. When I was younger, I had a weird wrist action at the top of my swing. I can’t say how it started, but it stuck. It became my green light to start the down swing. So, like you said, I’ve made adjustments to compensate. One thing I’ve tried is to feel my right elbow locking into place as I go back. Lock as in forearm stay near vertical versus my 45 degree angle. It stopped my loop around but I lost my timing. So I never kept with it. 

I’ll keep working. I got a lot of years ahead of me, I hope. 

[mvmac]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I'd clean up the backswing. Stop the sweet spot from going so far around you and then twisting over the top, like this (the white is the pretend club/clubhead):

Yep that makes a lot of sense.

Couple more examples for ya @phillyk 

 

[phillyk]

 

8 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Yep that makes a lot of sense.

Couple more examples for ya @phillyk 

Interesting. I have an event Monday. But afterwards, I’ll give something a try that I saw between this picture and my video. Its a feel I have to change. Between A3 and A4. 

Its just a little funny that I score as well as I do with my swing. I definitely make it work, but it makes me wonder how much better I can be with something more functional. 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, phillyk said:

Between A3 and A4.

Waiting until A3 would be too late. Setup, A1, A2, A3… and A4.

And it's probably not something you can just "try" out.

[mvmac]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

I'd clean up the backswing. Stop the sweet spot from going so far around you and then twisting over the top, like this (the white is the pretend club/clubhead):

Just want to add to this and my last post.

I think getting the grip closer to neutral, even slightly strong will help with the takeaway/backswing. Having the lead elbow rotated "under" less (less supination) will help reduce the amount of forearm rotation. Basically turn the left hand to a stronger position with the pad on top of the grip, show less of the fleshy part of your elbow to the camera and get the right hand a bit stronger (first pad of the index finger on the side of the shaft).

[phillyk]

I went downstairs to our sim this morning to work that feel I had.  Making a stronger grip definitely helped that along.  Set-up wise, I'm still set up slightly right with hips and feet, so I'll get to that.  But, I'm trying to set my weight to what feels like over my right foot, but I'd venture a guess to say it's probably centered.  In the take away, I'm using the same feel in the beginning but I want to feel my right hand not pointing skyward at A3 and throwing the club head more straight up.  For a first attempt I'd say this looks better, but not quite there.  I'll have to really focus on rhythm, creating width on takeaway, and starting my lower body first on the down swing.  A lot to think about, but I've always been a good student when it comes to golf.  I'm guaranteed to shoot a high score now at Sahalee on Monday for my event, but I'd rather get to this now while it's fresh in my mind.

In the video, ignore the simulation part, because my first swing was a straight skull and I hit another ball without letting it reset.  I don't have a ton of room for videoing and doing a reasonable face on view is right out.  So this is what I got.

 

[iacas]

Oh boy.

@phillyk, this is the first of many steps, and it's not something you will just be able to "feel" and "do."

Tiger Woods took 18 months (several times) to change his swing a bit less than you're going to do with just this one change. Now, yes, he played at a significantly higher level, but to think that in one or ten or even a hundred swings you're going to "have it" is delusional.

Golf instruction is not about applying band-aids. You've got enough of those right now for five golfers.

[phillyk]

Gosh, this swing change is all I can think about today.  The main instructor at my course told me a good feel.  At A2, to think about bringing my right thumb to my right ear.  He said it made the back swing much more on plane.  I've already been hitting some great shots on the sim when I get the swing right. When I miss, it's a 15yd pull.  Just need some slow swings and to keep working on it.

21 minutes ago, iacas said:

Oh boy.

@phillyk, this is the first of many steps, and it's not something you will just be able to "feel" and "do."

Tiger Woods took 18 months (several times) to change his swing a bit less than you're going to do with just this one change. Now, yes, he played at a significantly higher level, but to think that in one or ten or even a hundred swings you're going to "have it" is delusional.

Golf instruction is not about applying band-aids. You've got enough of those right now for five golfers.

I know that I don't just have it. I won't go out and shoot even par tomorrow.  I have to retain confidence that I can, though.  I'm not conning myself, I'm just optimistic about improving.

EDIT: If it takes me 18 months to get to a +5 handicap, I'll take it.  Tiger has much different goals than I do.  If I see even a slight improvement in one day, it's a good day.  All I can say is we'll see how it goes.

Edited February 1, 2018 by phillyk

[phillyk]

Well, I obviously didn't play well today.  But, considering this change, I'm very happy with my overall play.  81 at Sahalee.  Some changes I'm noticing are increased distances on all my clubs.  Driver is carrying 10-15yds further (seriously, I was destroying the ball with my driver), long irons 10yds further, and everything else about 5yds further.  I actually did very well off the tee.  Approach shots were a little off, which was fine.  The biggest let down was actually short game.  I think it was because of my attention on long game and I neglected the short game.  Won't take too long to get back, but I can count at least 4 unnecessary strokes from terrible short game shots.  

For 3 days and this being the first round with a new swing and grip, things are looking good.  Hopefully I can keep this going and keep improving.  Will definitely look into the short game a bit more.

[phillyk]

Been working hard on this swing change. Driver swing has actually gained 3mph club head speed on average which was weird at first.

This is the data from an ES14. 

Averaging 121mph club head speed in this session. Spin is a little high. I’ve been using a stiff shaft with my LSTec G400 but I’m looking into getting a X-stiff of some kind. 

When I played a few holes today, swing felt really good. Grip still feels weird being stronger but I’m slowly getting used to it. Here is my last video in the sim I took.

I’m just working on the feels I have to create the plane. I’m getting some accuracy back with mid and short irons. Long irons still need more work but they are getting better. 

[mvmac]

Really like the practice rehearsals. One thing I would recommend is trying to hit shots at a speed where you can make the swing look closer to these practice moves.

[phillyk]

These videos were taken today during my warm-up prior to playing a round.  Looks like my feet alignment points right still but now my swing follows it and I'm playing for it.  I'm not sure if the DTL is fully representative of alignment because I feel like I don't aim that bad in the round, but I could be wrong. My main thoughts are still to bring club back more vertical than flat-inside and still swing along, what feels like, my shoulder line versus feet line.

 

I do like my impact position more now.  I'm feeling pretty good about where I've gotten so far. 

[phillyk]

I got the yardages and such for my US Open Qualifier at Wine Valley.  So, now is when I start over-analyzing everything until my practice round.  

The first thing that jumps out at me from the yardages is that there are two par 4's (477yds and 502yds) longer than a par 5 (475yds).  Yes, the par 5 plays maybe 40-50yds uphill where as those par 4's are downhill.  I know it's just a number and doesn't matter.  The objective is the same, get the ball in hole in the least amount of strokes.  It just looks weird on a scorecard.

I have played the course before, but in August when it's very dried out, and this qualifier is in the beginning of May.  It's a desert-like course with lots of roll-out and very wide, rolling fairways.  Bunkers are rather large but require a pretty big miss or enough roll-out to go in one.  The greens when I played were firm to where a 8iron may have one big bounce and stop within a few feet and short pitches would be tough to stop quickly.  SO, the big question to figure out in the practice round is how firm the fairways/greens are and how much spin will catch/how fast can I stop, let's say, a 50yd pitch shot.  Most of the holes are straight forward driver here holes.  Others require a little helping wind to carry obstacles or it would be a lay-up shot.  But there are at least 2 holes where I can either be rather aggressive and put the ball within 60yds of the green on the drive or lay it back to 135-160yds and give myself a full swing.  I don't want to get too close and not be able to stop the ball where I want.

I really enjoy courses where I can use all the slopes of the green to funnel the ball around.  The greens on this course are like that.  Just need to end up in the right quadrant on approaches and I should be OK.  I'll definitely use my GameGolf for the practice round to map everything out, then take off the tags at night. 

I'm excited!  I'm not expecting much, really.  I just want to go out, have fun, and put together a good round.

[phillyk]

To start off, I'll answer my inquiry from the last post.  Fairways were rolling enough to be a little scary but it didn't change my plan any.  Greens were firm and I could only really stop a ball if the green was sloping up.  On one of the reachable-ish par 4's I decided to go for it because there was a heavy wind behind me.  Unfortunately, that didn't pan out.  Greens were dead smooth and quick but not stupid fast.

Course played around 7350yds and winds were constantly 10-20mph, except for the last 3 holes which had to have been 20-30mph because my ball was oscillating quite a bit on the greens and I hit a drive 390yds downwind on a relatively flat hole.  I shot a 74.  2 players were at 72 and had to play a playoff for the 5th spot.  Medalist was at 70 and 3 other guys shot 71.

I played with a guy who plays for a living on mini tours.  Says he does well enough to break even.  He had a rough day, but I could tell he was a player.  His irons and short game are pretty darn good.  Driving was ok.  I think he just had some mental farts and gave up too early.

As for me, driver was sweet except for 2 back to back holes, I hit a nasty hook.  The second hole was tough because there was a 15min wait on the tee and the hole is 470yds, par 4, into the wind, so a good drive was needed and I pulled out too early in my swing.  Everything else was well hit and a bomb.  Wedges were well hit but the wind threw me off a bit so I wasn't hitting them as close as I would like.  Irons were as good as I could hope for.  I lost strokes on leaving a few wedge shots short of green but in fairway, and a couple times I couldn't get up and down.  My 2 birdies were on par 5's.

Hole 1 - I didn't feel nervous, which was nice.  All those pro-ams are paying off for nerves.  Hit driver in fairway.  2nd shot was directly into the wind and I left 8iron short.  Got up and down for par.

Hole 2 - Hit a hybrid downwind and it somehow reached the mud bunker 310yds out.  My first of amazing shots came here when I hit my 60 clean from 85yds (somehow, because my feet were sinking into the mud, but it was a bunker with no actual water, just super freakin muddy) and the ball ended up 15ft for birdie.  Got par.

Hole 3 - Par 5 into the wind.  Good drive, good 2nd shot to 60yds out, and put my wedge to 10ft,  I played too much break. Par

Hole 4 - short par 4 with a massive bunker short left of green, which I found after the first of 2 hooked drives.  Ended up against lip on drive so hit 2nd again in the bunker.  3rd went 15ft past pin and I couldn't sink the par putt.  Bogey.

Hole 5 - Long par 4 after the 15min wait, hooked the drive.  Then came the 2nd amazing shot.  I don't even know how far out I was, must've been 180-190 into the wind.  My ball was in the long dune grass lying in a descending valley thing.  I just wanted to hit 8iron up 30-40yds short of the green.  I think I caught the ball on the lower grooves as it came out low, but it ended up just barely short of the green.  Seriously, I have no idea how it happened. Got lucky.  Got my par save.

Hole 6 - longer par 3, but down wind, I hit 8iron to 15ft, and barely missed the putt, got par.

Hole 7 - Downwind par 5.  Blasted driver, hit a very good 3 iron into the bowl green and had 20ft for eagle.  I hit putt too hard but managed to get my birdie.

Hole 8 - Downwind par 3, hit 7iron well to middle of green.  Left with a 30 footer, and got my par.

Hole 9 - Par 4 with left to right wind.  Leaned left with driver and pushed it a bit, but I ended up ok. Hit wedge pin high and barely into the fringe right.  Routine par.

Hole 10 - 610yd par 5 directly into the wind.  Hit drive really well, 3iron to 85yds out, but left wedge short.  Walked out with par.

Hole 11 - Par 3, hit 8 iron middle of green, pin high.  Got my par.

Hole 12 - Par 4 with left to right wind and hit a nice cut.  Left myself 120 out.  Hit wedge pin high but left and got my par.

Hole 13 - 500yd par 4.  Hooked my drive a little and got unlucky in the fairway bunker.  Ball was directly behind a mound and I couldn't get it out of the bunker.  Then 3rd shot with 8iron was my 3rd amazing shot of the day, when I hit it from 185yds out of the bunker and put ball pin high but middle right of green.  Didn't get my par, but it was a good bogey save after getting a bad lie in the bunker off the tee.

Hole 14 - Par 3 that played downwind in practice round, but all of a sudden the wind died on this hole.  Left my wedge way short of green.  4th amazing shot came here because pin was sitting on a high ledge of the green and I hit a perfect bump and run to end up 2ft.  Got my par.

Hole 15 - Left to right wind par 5.  Hit a straight ball down left side and left myself a 7iron into the green.  I put it to 15ft and played too much break on the eagle putt.  Got my birdie though.

Hole 16 - Par 3, this is when a 5min downpour out of nowhere started and the winds started howling more than usual that day.  It completely threw me off and I left my 7 iron short because I simply miss-hit it.  Pin was very hard to get to, so I opted to putt and it didn't work as well as I had hoped.  Left myself 15-20ft, blasted the ball by the hole.  Then missed that putt too by leaving it 1in short of the cup but in the center.  UGH!!  Double Bogey

Hole 17 - Heavy downwind 420yd par 4.  Hit a high draw drive and left myself only 30yds out.  The green and pin was above me but in a bowl.  If you go above the bowl, you're screwed.  So obviously, I over compensated and left it short of green on fringe.  Got par.

Hole 18 - Right to left heavy wind on a par 5.  Hit a good drive and was left with 250 to pin.  Hit a lower hooking 3iron that was originally right of a bunker and still ok but then it took a left turn into the berm just above the bunker.  Could only advance the ball halfway to the pin and 20ft away.  Finished with a par and a 74.

So, yeah, couple bad breaks and mental mistakes, but a few amazing shots that saved me.  I had a great time.  I think my attitude about it really helped.  I just wanted to go out, have fun, and play golf.  That's what I did.  No getting pissed by mistakes like the other guys in my group.

It's cool to know that I can play with guys of mini-tour level and beat a chunk of them when it matters.  I'll keep working on my game and see what happens next time.

[phillyk]

Played today at the course where I had my all time low. I haven’t played there in over a year, though. Started out well with a birdie but my nemesis hole #3 gave me my bogey. After hitting a few unwanted cuts, I realized my chest was open and by squaring it, I got a baby draw back. I also decided, for the first time in 13 years, to try a new putter. I got a new odyssey o-works a few months ago, and didn’t try it until last night and it felt really good. Today, I was sinking some good putts. Shot a 68 (-4) with 2 water hazard penalties, 15 GIR, and 30 putts. Didn’t feel like a good round, but it obviously was solid. 

[phillyk]

Played 9 holes today. I used to grip down on my driver by an inch or two because it helped with control while not sacrificing too much distance, but I hadn’t done it for a year or so. It’s not that my driver is bad right now, but there’s some room for improvement. Im hitting it further than ever but I leak to the right just a tad, when I miss.  So, today I decided to grip down, and it felt amazing! Near perfect contact every time and right on my aim points.

I’ve also been working a bit on short game and putting. I’m trying to shallow my strike while chipping. Putting i need to lean shaft forward a tad to have the ball roll smooth. 

First hole drove the green, par 4 downhill 400yds but a big drop downhill, but stupidly 3-putt it. 2nd hole 320yds, drive was just short but in fw. Chip and putt for birdie. 3rd hole hard dog leg right par 5, I cut corner and end 125yds out, 2nd shot to 6ft and 2 putt for birdie. 4th hole 290, 3w in greenside bunker, i pitch out and putt in for birdie. 5th hole par 5 that needs a 280 carry to carry ravine, i get over no problem, 150 left, on green and 2 putt birdie. 6th hole, par 3, get on green to 15ft and make putt for birdie. 7 par 4 wasnt special, par. 8 par 3 gir 2 putt par. 9th uphill dogleg right par 4, i put driver just short of green and pitch but it rolled out a tad too much. Finished with par, so a -5, 31. A 3 putt and a missed 6fter and its a 29... ugh! So close, but no cigar. But still, an awesome 9 holes! Feeling good.