Hazard or Out Of Bounds?

[Rulesman]

OK.I'll buy that.  There is still OB and there are still OB limits, but there is just no marking.

Am I wrong, though, in my understanding that anything that is not on the property of the course is OB whether or not so marked?  That was kind of the genesis of my point since obviously a golf course has to have limits to its property.

Back to Pebble Beach. The Pacific is not owned by the club and is not OB.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

I imagine what he means, is that the course has no marked boundaries.  Think about courses in the middle of the woods or desert with absolutely nothing around them.  The course isn't actually infinite in size, but from a practical nature, there is no "out-of-bounds".....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Exactly

OK.I'll buy that.  There is still OB and there are still OB limits, but there is just no marking.

Am I wrong, though, in my understanding that anything that is not on the property of the course is OB whether or not so marked?  That was kind of the genesis of my point since obviously a golf course has to have limits to its property.

Yes you are wrong.  If it isn't designated as OB in some fashion, then it isn't OB.  I've played several courses where there simply isn't any out of bounds.  No matter how far you stray from the normal line of play, your ball is still in play if you can find it.

[luu5]

Wording of the definition leaves a bit to be desired:

“Out of bounds’’ is beyond the boundaries of the course or any part of the course so marked by the Committee.

So if the Committee has not defined the course (and boundaries) there is no OB?

[Rulesman]

Not quite. There may be obvious de facto boundaries that the committee has not marked. eg a fenced or walled prison.

[natureboy]

So if you hit into a red staked lateral hazard with trees and other gnarly stuff and you know with a certainty that you hit into it and you know with certainty where the ball crossed the hazard line, but you can't find the ball:

Do you hit per lateral hazard rules (2-club drop or as far back as desired along line between hole and point of crossing), or stroke and distance / provisional?

[luu5]

So if you hit into a red staked lateral hazard with trees and other gnarly stuff and you know with a certainty that you hit into it and you know with certainty where the ball crossed the hazard line, but you can't find the ball:

Do you hit per lateral hazard rules (2-club drop or as far back as desired along line between hole and point of crossing), or stroke and distance / provisional?

If it has been marked as water hazard then you play it as water hazard. Very easy.

[Rulesman]

So if you hit into a red staked lateral hazard with trees and other gnarly stuff and you know with a certainty that you hit into it and you know with certainty where the ball crossed the hazard line, but you can't find the ball:

Do you hit per lateral hazard rules (2-club drop or as far back as desired along line between hole and point of crossing), or stroke and distance / provisional?

You certainly can't playa provisional.

If it is a true lateral water hazard, you must play under one of the options under Rule 26-1 (ie a), b) or c) (which are in effect those you mention).

If it is just a so called 'lateral hazard', play according to the rules set out by the tournament or course committee but remember to let them know the course is marked in direct contravention of the rules.

[turtleback]

So if you hit into a red staked lateral hazard with trees and other gnarly stuff and you know with a certainty that you hit into it and you know with certainty where the ball crossed the hazard line, but you can't find the ball:

Do you hit per lateral hazard rules (2-club drop or as far back as desired along line between hole and point of crossing), or stroke and distance / provisional?

If we accept your certainty then you would play it as a lateral hazard.

But being certain that you hit into the hazard may not provide the kind of virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard to warrant invoking the lateral rules.

Are you certain that the ball remained in the hazard (as might be the case if it is pond-like, you saw the splash, and know it did not skip), or is it possible the ball may have bounced out of the hazard into that gnarly stuff you describe (as might be the case if the hazard is more of a stream with shallow water, rocks, and the potential for balls to bounce out)?  It is really a fact specific question, so the answer depends on the specifics.  The fact that you cannot find the ball may or may not be a factor.  Sometimes it is entirely reasonable to not find the ball and sometimes not so much.

[natureboy]

You certainly can't playa provisional.

If it is a true lateral water hazard, you must play under one of the options under Rule 26-1 (ie a), b) or c) (which are in effect those you mention).

If it is just a so called 'lateral hazard', play according to the rules set out by the tournament or course committee but remember to let them know the course is marked in direct contravention of the rules.

If we accept your certainty then you would play it as a lateral hazard.

But being certain that you hit into the hazard may not provide the kind of virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard to warrant invoking the lateral rules.

Are you certain that the ball remained in the hazard (as might be the case if it is pond-like, you saw the splash, and know it did not skip), or is it possible the ball may have bounced out of the hazard into that gnarly stuff you describe (as might be the case if the hazard is more of a stream with shallow water, rocks, and the potential for balls to bounce out)?  It is really a fact specific question, so the answer depends on the specifics.  The fact that you cannot find the ball may or may not be a factor.  Sometimes it is entirely reasonable to not find the ball and sometimes not so much.

I'm thinking of some red staked hazards that border pretty large depressions / ravines with woods and a stream / water course pretty far down at the bottom. Bouncing out is unlikely, but there is no visible splash. I have to this point played them as a likely lost ball (why the provisional), but wondered if I could have taken just the stroke and dropped. I am glad I played the provisional balls, because I needed the practice from the tee.

Who determines the virtual certainty? Your playing partners or yourself if playing solo?

[Rulesman]

Who determines the virtual certainty? Your playing partners or yourself if playing solo?

Ultimately the Committee but you make the decision. If you are not sure play two balls under rule3-3.

This tells you what to consider.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-26/#d26-1-1