Taking left handed stance to get relief

[Bird E3]

I've never seen this before. As you can see, he can't hit his shot right handed, but when he turns around to hit left handed, the sprinkler head is in the way as well. He gets relief from his left handed stance and proceeds to hit the shot right handed. Does that mean that if my ball lands on the left side of a cart path, I can say I'm going to hit left handed, get relief,and then hit right handed? The benefit could be an improved lie. I didn't like this ruling, because his intention was to be able to hit the ball right handed.

[wadesworld]

If it is reasonable for you to take a left-handed stance and that grants you relief, then you may do so.

However, in your example, simply turning around in order to gain relief from a cart path is not permitted.  There needs to be something which makes it reasonable for you to turn around.  For example, if the cart path has a boundary fence along its right side, it would be reasonable for you to claim you want to hit the shot left-handed to avoid interference from the fence.

In the picture above, he clearly cannot hit a right-handed shot, so he is permitted to turn around and hit left-handed.  The fact that the sprinkler head then interferes is a new situation and a fortunate break for him.  Sometimes the rules work to your advantage, as they did for him in this case.

[Bird E3]

I would argue that he could hit it right handed, he just wouldn't have been able to get it to the green. He has a putter right? He could easily turn sideways and pitch out as well.

[Golfingdad]

I've never seen this before. As you can see, he can't hit his shot right handed, but when he turns around to hit left handed, the sprinkler head is in the way as well. He gets relief from his left handed stance and proceeds to hit the shot right handed. Does that mean that if my ball lands on the left side of a cart path, I can say I'm going to hit left handed, get relief,and then hit right handed? The benefit could be an improved lie. I didn't like this ruling, because his intention was to be able to hit the ball right handed.

Yes.  With very similar discussions found here: http://thesandtrap.com/t/68147/relief-near-boundary-fence/0_30 and here: http://thesandtrap.com/t/81585/an-nearest-point-of-relief-npr-dilemma/0_30

It's very reasonable to see how he would want to play the shot (heck, he'd HAVE to) left handed from where it currently lies.  Thus, he's entitled to relief from the drain for that situation.  After he gets his relief, it's now a new situation, and he determines that he can play it right handed.  That's perfectly acceptable.  Without watching it, though, I'm guessing he ended up back on the drain and had to drop again?

A good example of why it can be of great benefit to know the rules.  Sometimes they can help you.

[dkolo]

I would argue that he could hit it right handed, he just wouldn't have been able to get it to the green. He has a putter right?

The rule isn't that he can't possibly hit it right handed, just that it's reasonable to hit it left handed.

[Golfingdad]

The rule isn't that he can't possibly hit it right handed, just that it's reasonable to hit it left handed.

Yeah ... imagine the situation without the drain in the way.  If it's me, there is no way on earth I'm using my putter.  I'm taking my 9 iron, flipping it upside down, and hitting it left handed as far as I can down the fairway.  The drain being there is just a lucky break.

[Bird E3]

The rule isn't that he can't possibly hit it right handed, just that it's reasonable to hit it left handed.

I don't see how it's reasonable when he could easily put the ball in the middle of his stance, and pitch out. The problem is his intention from the beginning is not to hit it left handed, but to get a drop to hit it right handed. I realize I lost the argument, but if you intend to hit left handed to get a drop, you should have to hit it left handed.

[Bird E3]

Yeah ... imagine the situation without the drain in the way.  If it's me, there is no way on earth I'm using my putter.  I'm taking my 9 iron, flipping it upside down, and hitting it left handed as far as I can down the fairway.  The drain being there is just a lucky break.

I would say pitching out would be a much safer shot. I'm not sure I would flip the club upside down that close to the water.

[Golfingdad]

I don't see how it's reasonable when he could easily put the ball in the middle of his stance, and pitch out. The problem is his intention from the beginning is not to hit it left handed, but to get a drop to hit it right handed. I realize I lost the argument, but if you intend to hit left handed to get a drop, you should have to hit it left handed.

There is stuff built into the rules for that, but you're taking it too far here.  Like I said, even if the drain wasn't there, it's entirely reasonable that somebody with PGA Tour talent could hit that shot left handed.  Heck, even I can do it.  Ask @Big C (Note: I don't mean I can hit it to the green from there, just that I can advance it farther down the fairway left handed with a 9 iron than I can with a putter while falling into the water)

Consider your last (bolded) statement as it would apply to this hypothetical:  He gets the drop because left handed is his reasonable play.  As it turns out, his NPR now puts him 5 yards directly behind a tree, however, he can stand right handed unobstructed by the drain.  Also, the cart path happens to be just to the right of his ball.  So, if you "force" him to hit it left handed when left handed isn't his reasonable stance, now you're giving him a free drop from a cart path he would never have intended to hit the shot from.

I would say pitching out would be a much safer shot. I'm not sure I would flip the club upside down that close to the water.

And that might be for you.  And if that is true, then you would not get relief.

[Dormie1360]

I would argue that he could hit it right handed, he just wouldn't have been able to get it to the green. He has a putter right? He could easily turn sideways and pitch out as well

I think it was the correct ruling.  Even with a putter, he would have had half his feet hanging over the water, easy to lose you balance and fall in.  I think it would be reasonable to conclude that he could and would choose to advance the ball with a left handed swing in the direction he chose..

Short story from a recent workshop.  I forget all the details but a very experienced PGA Official was teaching the class and related a story concerning Phil Mickelson. The circumstance were similar in that Phil wanted to play a stroke in a certain direction but was standing on interference.  The official ruled against Mickelson saying it was not reasonable to try and play the shot he said he was going to play.

Phil then played the stroke anyway and pulled it off.......much to the embarrassment of the official.

The key to the ruling is whether or not it is reasonable for the player to play the intended stroke, with the intended stance, in the intended direction..  Tour players, because of their skill level, do often get rulings like this in their favor.

And to Golfingdad's point, these rulings are not based on what the guy ruling thinks he can/would do, or what the average golf fan at home would do.

[dkolo]

I don't see how it's reasonable when he could easily put the ball in the middle of his stance, and pitch out. The problem is his intention from the beginning is not to hit it left handed, but to get a drop to hit it right handed. I realize I lost the argument, but if you intend to hit left handed to get a drop, you should have to hit it left handed.

Guy could fall into the water. It's an elevated bank. If he loses his balance, he's not taking a step back into more grass that's labeled hazard, he's falling into the drink. I have no doubt that hitting it lefty is reasonable under the circumstances. I've done similar plays with a fence instead of a hazard and a cart path instead of a sprinkler. Only way to get club on the ball is to hit lefty, which puts me on the path, so I get relief to the far side, at which point I would hit righty, so I take relief again. You just have to work through the relief step by step.

[Golfingdad]

Was at the driving range at lunch today and thought "What the heck."  Note that I imagined the red and yellow pole as the line of the hazard so I was aiming well right of that.  I hit the first shot about 50 yards and the second shot about 100 (to the red and white pole).

If it was a 3 or 4 foot drop into a lake, no way would I even bother trying to stand over there - I'd be too afraid to fall in.

[Bird E3]

Guy could fall into the water. It's an elevated bank. If he loses his balance, he's not taking a step back into more grass that's labeled hazard, he's falling into the drink. I have no doubt that hitting it lefty is reasonable under the circumstances. I've done similar plays with a fence instead of a hazard and a cart path instead of a sprinkler. Only way to get club on the ball is to hit lefty, which puts me on the path, so I get relief to the far side, at which point I would hit righty, so I take relief again. You just have to work through the relief step by step.

haha nice shot. I'm saying he could have had his ass facing the hole and pitch out, a much safer and just as effective shot as hitting it left handed. He wouldn't have got either shot to the green, but the relief enabled him to get a shot at the green. If you had you butt facing the range, the ball would be in the middle of your stance. I'm not saying he should have balanced on the wood, just turn his body. [quote name="Golfingdad" url="/t/81855/taking-left-handed-stance-to-get-relief#post_1139115"]Was at the driving range at lunch today and thought "What the heck."  Note that I imagined the red and yellow pole as the line of the hazard so I was aiming well right of that.  I hit the first shot about 50 yards and the second shot about 100 (to the red and white pole). If it was a 3 or 4 foot drop into a lake, no way would I even bother trying to stand over there - I'd be too afraid to fall in. [/quote]

[dkolo]

haha nice shot. I'm saying he could have had his ass facing the hole and pitch out, a much safer and just as effective shot as hitting it left handed. He would have got either shot to the green, but the relief enabled him to get a shot at the green. If you had you butt facing the range, the ball would be in the middle of your stance. I'm not saying he should have balanced on the wood, just turn his body.

Sure, I'm not saying it wouldn't be an option. He could also have hit it completely backwards right handed. But neither of those two options takes away from the fact that going lefty was a reasonable play, which is all one needs to establish to try to get relief in this scenario. Sometimes the rules help you. Considering how much they usually hurt you, I'm not going to fight it too hard.

[Bird E3]

Was at the driving range at lunch today and thought "What the heck."  Note that I imagined the red and yellow pole as the line of the hazard so I was aiming well right of that.  I hit the first shot about 50 yards and the second shot about 100 (to the red and white pole). If it was a 3 or 4 foot drop into a lake, no way would I even bother trying to stand over there - I'd be too afraid to fall in.

Would you take that shot in a tournament, with the water right there? Both pitching out or hitting it lefty gave him no shot at the green.

[Bird E3]

Sure, I'm not saying it wouldn't be an option. He could also have hit it completely backwards right handed. But neither of those two options takes away from the fact that going lefty was a reasonable play, which is all one needs to establish to try to get relief in this scenario. Sometimes the rules help you. Considering how much they usually hurt you, I'm not going to fight it too hard.

I hear you.

[Bird E3]

Has anyone actually seen a PGA player hit this supposed reasonable shot before? I can't recall it ever happening. I saw Ricky borrow Phils club lol, and I've obviously seen it against a tree, but never the edge of the water.

[Golfingdad]

Would you take that shot in a tournament, with the water right there? Both pitching out or hitting it lefty gave him no shot at the green.

Absolutely.  Probably wouldn't swing quite full out like that just to be certain I didn't clunk it into the water, though.  But I'm not willing to risk the fall into the water so my choices are hitting the lefty shot towards the hole or pitching straight sideways (or backwards, but I can go sideways easily enough just as you described, so backwards would be silly).

There is a lot of water on that course so it could be anywhere, but in my imagination, this is 18.  That hole is, what, 470 or so?  Assuming that was a decent drive and he obviously shortened the hole as much as is humanly possibly without accruing a penalty stroke, then I'm guessing that he has something on the order of 170 left?

So, that means I can hit the lefty shot 75-90 yards or so towards the middle right side ;) of the fairway, leaving me with a very reasonable pitch of 80-100 yards OR I can go sideways, leaving myself with a third shot that is still 170 yards out.  I would attempt the left handed shot EVERY TIME - drain grate or no drain grate.