Provisional-2nd provisional and found ball question

[Fourputt]

So even though the ball was way further down than I could have thought to have looked - which would have been about the entire length of the hole since I nearly drove the green, but couldn't see that side of the fairway from the tee. So what do you do? Hit a provisional on every hole where you don't have a clear view of the fairway? I played the wrong ball. I should have taken my bogey putt and gone home. But you see, this is the way I was told to play it in my league. It wouldn't be the first time they were wrong about a rule.

See here's where the rules are really screwed up for us common folk who don't have TV cameras following the ball. The ball was lost on the edge of the first cut way the hell down near the green. I just couldn't see it. No one could see it. I don't hit a high drive - apparently I hit a low-mid low spin bullet that rolls a mile.

My point was that when you returned to the tee, you were playing under penalty of stroke and distance, not a provisional ball.  The original ball is deemed lost as soon as you hit that second ball (or it was lost when the 5 minute search period expired).  A provisional ball must be played before going forward to search.

[Duff McGee]

It matters where you make your stroke, not where that stroke sends the ball, correct. If I hit my drive and then hit a provisional and the provisional is 10 yards shorter and I hit that to the green, can I still play my first ball bc the provisional was behind it when I hit it to the green?

[Martyn W]

It matters where you make your stroke, not where that stroke sends the ball, correct. If I hit my drive and then hit a provisional and the provisional is 10 yards shorter and I hit that to the green, can I still play my first ball bc the provisional was behind it when I hit it to the green?

You are correct, not only can you play the original, you must. So if that second shot with the provisional went in the hole and you then found the first, you must abandon the provisional.

There is an interesting Decision sometimes referred to as the 'foot-race' Decision: in my example if the player runs to the hole and takes the ball out of the hole before his FC can find the original (which the player chose not to search for) the hole is over. If the FC finds the original first, he (the player) must play it!

[iacas]

This is the part of the ruling which I'm having difficulty with.

How can a rule with "LIKELY TO BE" have merit to any certainly?

I'm good with the player searching in the area where they deem the ball was hit, then after 5 minutes of searching, they then play the provisional.

I guess I'm creating a scenario when a player hits a couple of shots to the same area, finds the second shot, hits it, believes the first shot is lost, walks forward towards the hole and then finds the first ball.

The scenario was explained already. It's designed to save time.

A player hits his first tee shot into some heavy rough 300 yards off the tee. He hits his second shot, duffs it, and it rolls 30 yards.

So, rather than walking 300 yards forward, looking for his ball, and then returning to his duffed tee shot 270 yards back, the Rules of Golf let him play the ball until he gets to about 300 yards, at which point he must look for the original ball and then:

• if he doesn't find it in five minutes, the ball is lost and the provisional is in play.
• if he does find it, the provisional is abandoned and the original ball is in play.

If he plays a shot from about 300 yards with the provisional, the provisional is in play, because he's now playing that ball not just to save time.

The rule makes sense and saves time. Even if the numbers cited are 275 yards and 200 yards - the person can play their 200-yard provisional a second time before advancing to the 275 mark where their original ball is likely to be.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Club Rat

This is the part of the ruling which I'm having difficulty with.

How can a rule with "LIKELY TO BE" have merit to any certainly?

I'm good with the player searching in the area where they deem the ball was hit, then after 5 minutes of searching, they then play the provisional.

I guess I'm creating a scenario when a player hits a couple of shots to the same area, finds the second shot, hits it, believes the first shot is lost, walks forward towards the hole and then finds the first ball.

The scenario was explained already. It's designed to save time.

A player hits his first tee shot into some heavy rough 300 yards off the tee. He hits his second shot, duffs it, and it rolls 30 yards.

So, rather than walking 300 yards forward, looking for his ball, and then returning to his duffed tee shot 270 yards back, the Rules of Golf let him play the ball until he gets to about 300 yards, at which point he must look for the original ball and then:

if he doesn't find it in five minutes, the ball is lost and the provisional is in play.

if he does find it, the provisional is abandoned and the original ball is in play.

If he plays a shot from about 300 yards with the provisional, the provisional is in play, because he's now playing that ball not just to save time.

The rule makes sense and saves time. Even if the numbers cited are 275 yards and 200 yards - the person can play their 200-yard provisional a second time before advancing to the 275 mark where their original ball is likely to be.

And for further confirmation: Decision 27-2b/4:

27-2b/4

Provisional Ball Played from Beyond Where Original Ball Likely to Be But Not Beyond Where Original Ball Found

Q.A player, believing his tee shot might be lost or in a road defined as out of bounds, played a provisional ball. He searched for his original ball but did not find it. He went forward and played his provisional ball. Then he went farther forward and found his original ball in bounds. The original ball must have bounced down the road and then come back into bounds, because it was found much farther from the tee than anticipated. Was the original ball still the ball in play?

A.No. The player played a stroke with the provisional ball from a point nearer the hole than the place where the original ball was likely to be. When he did so, the provisional ball became the ball in play and the original ball was lost (Rule 27-2b).

The place where the original ball in fact lay was irrelevant.

This could be the case if the original ball hit a tree and the deflection is not observed, or if the ball lands on a spot of hardpan or hits a sprinkler head and bounces farther forward than expected.  These are some of the ways that the provisional ball can become the ball in play even when played from a point farther from the hole than where the original is ultimately found.

Of course, if you have already searched for 5 minutes, then all of this is irrelevant.

[Club Rat]

The order of the listing is the order of precedence.

Now I'm seeing the total relevance of the ruling.

The order which declares "The provisional ball becomes your ball in play when: after searching for five minutes and the original ball is not found"

The OP makes no reference to any timeframe of a search.

He only indicates the opponent played the provisional, then as they walked forward the original ball was found.

Had they searched for the ball and it was not found, it would be clearer.

Club Rat