Club face angle relative to grip question

[Frank62]

Hi all.

I first came upon this forum when a totally unrelated google search sent me to the "Common Golf Myths That May Be Hurting Your Game" thread. It was a pleasant surprise as the information provided on the correct ball flight laws was a real eye opener for me. It explained why for years I kept playing my ball directly at the obstacles I was trying to avoid . I will be forever grateful that I stumbled on to that thread and to the people that contributed to it. All of a sudden I was able to play fades and draws! A bit wild at first but after dialling a few shots in I was chuffed at the progress I was making. The one thing that has me stumped, however, is the doubt that has crept into my head about how I should be gripping the club. I'm hoping that someone can clear up the following for me.

I first started to play a draw by lining up to the target, opening my clubface slightly so that it was facing right of the target, and then re-aligning my stance so that the swing path was aligned even further right than the clubface. The result when executed properly resulted in a high, long draw that was a joy to behold! In this setup the clubface was OPEN relative to my grip. I would also play a fade with a similar setup. That is, I would open the clubface relative to my grip so that it was pointing left of the target, while my swingpath was pointing even further left. This also seemed to work well and got me out of trouble often.

The one constant in my setup for both a draw or a fade is that I am opening the clubface relative to my grip for both of these shots. My question is this. Should I be gripping the club so that the clubface is open relative to my grip? It makes sense for a fade but I am not so sure for a draw.

The more I thought about playing the draw the more I thought that, while I was executing it reasonably well, maybe I wasn't doing it right. I started to think that I should line up my swing path to the right of the target and then CLOSE the clubface relative to the grip. The idea being that the clubface was open to the target but still closed to the swing path. It seemed to make sense to me but I am really having problems with this setup. I seem to struggle with good ball striking when I start to use a hooded clubface. I have seen my question posted in many forums but I am yet to find a definitive answer.

I have no doubt that someone on here will be able to help. 

[Vinsk]

Just wanted to say welcome. Your question I'll leave to mvmac (Mike) or Iacas (Erik) as it is beyond my level. But you are right, you will have no trouble finding good, solid and accurate help on this forum. Erik and Mike are top notch instructors.

[Frank62]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

Just wanted to say welcome. Your question I'll leave to mvmac (Mike) or Iacas (Erik) as it is beyond my level. But you are right, you will have no trouble finding good, solid and accurate help on this forum. Erik and Mike are top notch instructors.

Thanks Vinsk.

[natureboy]

1 hour ago, Frank62 said:

I first started to play a draw by lining up to the target, opening my clubface slightly so that it was facing right of the target, and then re-aligning my stance so that the swing path was aligned even further right than the clubface. The result when executed properly resulted in a high, long draw that was a joy to behold! In this setup the clubface was OPEN relative to my grip. I would also play a fade with a similar setup. That is, I would open the clubface relative to my grip so that it was pointing left of the target, while my swingpath was pointing even further left. This also seemed to work well and got me out of trouble often.

The more I thought about playing the draw the more I thought that, while I was executing it reasonably well, maybe I wasn't doing it right. I started to think that I should line up my swing path to the right of the target and then CLOSE the clubface relative to the grip. The idea being that the clubface was open to the target but still closed to the swing path. It seemed to make sense to me but I am really having problems with this setup. I seem to struggle with good ball striking when I start to use a hooded clubface. I have seen my question posted in many forums but I am yet to find a definitive answer.

Sounds to me like either of these approaches can yield workable (ball curving back to target) draws and fades so long as with the first approach you don't open / close the face and then open / close the stance by the same amount which should create a straight shot - a pull or or a push / block. If the ball was curving back toward your target you had the concept down and just needed to fine tune it.

Mods will know the actual numbers for the differential between the face and the path, but as long as the swing path is somewhat to the right (for a righty) of the target and the face is aligned between that path and the target the ball should start right and draw back to target. Larger differential between path & face tilts the spin axis more and increases the amount of curve.

It does depend on the ball position / club loft / angle of attack too, but you experiment to work out best path / face ratios for your own swing tendencies perhaps starting with a framework from the site mods.

[Frank62]

Thanks for the response natureboy. I understand that technically both approaches should work.. Although I believe an open clubface will result in a higher trajectory.

I guess I want to know what would be considered the orthodox approach.

[natureboy]

20 minutes ago, Frank62 said:

Thanks for the response natureboy. I understand that technically both approaches should work.. Although I believe an open clubface will result in a higher trajectory.

Open relative to what?

[Frank62]

2 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Open relative to what?

to the grip

[natureboy]

10 minutes ago, Frank62 said:

to the grip

You're getting to the same place just doing things in a different order with your two procedures.

If you want the ball flight higher than you have been getting you will need to a more open clubface relative to the target line than you have been using. This will mean you have to increase the path angle relative to the target line to compensate and increase the curvature back to target since the ball is starting further offline - ball will also travel shorter.

Whoops, I fed it after midnight.

Edited November 10, 2015 by natureboy

[mvmac]

3 hours ago, Frank62 said:

The one constant in my setup for both a draw or a fade is that I am opening the clubface relative to my grip for both of these shots. My question is this. Should I be gripping the club so that the clubface is open relative to my grip? It makes sense for a fade but I am not so sure for a draw.

I draw most of my shots and do set-up with the club face is a few degrees "open" (we like to use right and left in relation to the target). I want to start the ball right of my target so the face needs to be aimed a little right for a stock or "square" stance.

Might be a good thread for you to check out.

[natureboy]

1 hour ago, natureboy said:

You're getting to the same place just doing things in a different order with your two procedures.

If you want the ball flight higher than you have been getting you will need to a more open clubface relative to the target line than you have been using. This will mean you have to increase the path angle relative to the target line to compensate and increase the curvature back to target since the ball is starting further offline - ball will also travel shorter.

Bolded piece is in reference to a draw only. The general change for a higher shot is a more open face relative to what you are currently delivering at impact. If you present a more open club face through impact then you would need to shift the draw path further right of target to increase the curve since the ball would be starting farther R. The fade path would move closer (right) to the target line, since the ball would be starting less left of target with a more open face relative to what you are currently doing.

Stated another way, relative to where you end up at address with either of your procedures the face is more open and both paths need to shift right relative to where they are now (a bit more than you would open the face I think). Draw flight should start further right, curve more, and fly higher & shorter than currently. Fade curve should start less left, curve less, and fly higher and longer than currently.

You may also be able to adjust shot height with change in axis tilt, but check with mods if this would lead to or require problematic compensations. 

Edited November 10, 2015 by natureboy

[Frank62]

15 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Bolded piece is in reference to a draw only. The general change for a higher shot is a more open face relative to what you are currently delivering at impact. If you present a more open club face through impact then you would need to shift the draw path further right of target to increase the curve since the ball would be starting farther R. The fade path would move closer (right) to the target line, since the ball would be starting less left of target with a more open face relative to what you are currently doing. Stated another way, relative to where you end up at address with either procedure the face is more open and both paths need to shift right relative to where they are now to accommodate the more open face.

You may also be able to adjust shot height with change in axis tilt, but check with mods if this would lead to problematic compensations. 

It seems what you are saying is they way I currently deliver the club. Clubface open (right) to my grip AND target line. Swingpath  more open (right) than where the clubface is pointing. My question was whether I should be delivering the clubface closed (left) relative to my grip but still open (right) of target line with the swing path once again more open (right) than that.

This could get quite confusing. 

1 hour ago, mvmac said:

I draw most of my shots and do set-up with the club face is a few degrees "open" (we like to use right and left in relation to the target). I want to start the ball right of my target so the face needs to be aimed a little right for a stock or "square" stance.

Might be a good thread for you to check out.

Thanks mvmac. I'll check out that thread.

[natureboy]

19 minutes ago, Frank62 said:

It seems what you are saying is they way I currently deliver the club. Clubface open (right) to my grip AND target line. Swingpath  more open (right) than where the clubface is pointing. My question was whether I should be delivering the clubface closed (left) relative to my grip but still open (right) of target line with the swing path once again more open (right) than that.

This could get quite confusing. 

Thanks mvmac. I'll check out that thread.

Yeah, I was getting tired and think I was right the first time in that the paths move farther out with the more open face so that a larger curve brinks the higher, shorter ball flight back to target.

The straighter higher fade (path shifting right toward target line with open face) is just returning toward a relatively straight high shot and I don't think that's what you wanted.

Edited November 10, 2015 by natureboy

[mvmac]

10 hours ago, Frank62 said:

My question was whether I should be delivering the clubface closed (left) relative to my grip but still open (right) of target line with the swing path once again more open (right) than that.

I would say no, unless you wanted to play a pull draw. Which can be a playable pattern but you can run into height issues with the mid to long irons. Also what you're describing could turn into a shot that draws too much, swinging out with the left aiming club face.

[mdl]

4 hours ago, mvmac said:

I would say no, unless you wanted to play a pull draw. Which can be a playable pattern but you can run into height issues with the mid to long irons. Also what you're describing could turn into a shot that draws too much, swinging out with the left aiming club face.

I agree with this.  I've been working on learning to draw the ball, and my big miss has changed from huge blocks and block fades to ugly straight or pulled snap hooks.  This comes exactly from successfully getting an in to out face path but drifting towards square or closed club face (relative to target line).  So I agree, a stance relatively along the target line, club face open to the target line, face path more open to the target line is preferred to stance right of target line, club face about along the stance line (so open to the target line), and path open to both the stance and target lines.

Though, if you can dial in a baby draw, playing a straight draw with a stance line right of the target is definitely playable.

[Frank62]

59 minutes ago, mdl said:

I agree with this.  I've been working on learning to draw the ball, and my big miss has changed from huge blocks and block fades to ugly straight or pulled snap hooks.  This comes exactly from successfully getting an in to out face path but drifting towards square or closed club face (relative to target line).  So I agree, a stance relatively along the target line, club face open to the target line, face path more open to the target line is preferred to stance right of target line, club face about along the stance line (so open to the target line), and path open to both the stance and target lines.

Though, if you can dial in a baby draw, playing a straight draw with a stance line right of the target is definitely playable.

I am assuming you are manipulating the face path (swing path?) to be more open to the target line since your natural face path would be along the target line if your stance is also parallel to the target line. I am trying to come up with a repeatable shot that allows me to play my natural swing.

I'm struggling to understand the remainder of the sentence after what has been bolded. If you say your stance is relatively along the target line (I'm assuming parallel). So how then does your club face be open to the target line if it is "about along the stance line".

[natureboy]

16 hours ago, Frank62 said:

It seems what you are saying is they way I currently deliver the club. Clubface open (right) to my grip AND target line. Swingpath  more open (right) than where the clubface is pointing. My question was whether I should be delivering the clubface closed (left) relative to my grip but still open (right) of target line with the swing path once again more open (right) than that.

Not quite clear what closed relative to your grip means. Do you mean closed relative to your body alignment relative to the target? How about a rough diagram? A club face that is open to the target line at impact with a swing path further right than the face angle will lead to a draw back toward the target line. How much depends on the relative differential.

Many people draw shots the way you are describing - it may even be the 'orthodox' way - but I personally find it easier / simpler to swing along the body line. I find with an alignment like you suggest (assuming you mean club face closed to / left of body line but still open to / right of target and even further closed to / left of swing path) that I tend to overdraw / hook the shot more often than produce a workable draw.

Edited November 10, 2015 by natureboy

[mdl]

46 minutes ago, Frank62 said:

I am assuming you are manipulating the face path (swing path?) to be more open to the target line since your natural face path would be along the target line if your stance is also parallel to the target line. I am trying to come up with a repeatable shot that allows me to play my natural swing.

I'm struggling to understand the remainder of the sentence after what has been bolded. If you say your stance is relatively along the target line (I'm assuming parallel). So how then does your club face be open to the target line if it is "about along the stance line".

Maybe I was being confusing talking about two different approaches.  I agree with a common preference for stance parallel to the target line, club face open (right for righties) to the target line, path further open (further right than the club face).  So yes, this means your club face/swing path is still going out at impact.  

[Frank62]

When I say "closed relative to my grip" I'm actually talking about how the club is sitting in my hands. Take a normal (neutral) grip and then imagine the club being rotated a few degrees anti-clockwise in your hands. Rotating it clockwise "opens" the club face relative to the grip. This is how I determine the starting path of the ball and I'm beginning to think that although I've had some success with it that it probably isn't a wise method.

I'm thinking that I should be lining myself and the club face square but right of the target (for a draw) and changing the way I swing to manipulate the swing path so that it is aiming further right may be the smarter option.