Set up question.

[craps]

Most instructors teaches:

Square stance to target line.

Square hips.

Square shoulders.

Fairly strong grip.

Club face slightly open.

Swing to 1:00 O'clock.

Why not Ernie Els setup ? Square everything and neutral grip and swing to 12 O'Clock?

[saevel25]

11 minutes ago, craps said:

Fairly strong grip.

Club face slightly open.

Swing to 1:00 O'clock.

Why not Ernie Els setup ? Square everything and neutral grip and swing to 12 O'Clock?

Actually a neutral grip was the preferred grip taught for many years because it's what Hogan used. I've heard a lot of instructors and tips say not to use a stronger grip. 

I never heard, outside of Erik and Mike, mention lining up with the face open. 99% of the time I've heard line up the face square to the target line at address. 

Because, Ernie probably doesn't swing to 12 O'clock. He probably says he feels like he wants to but I believe Ernie hits a push draw. That being said he needs to have an outward swing path to do so. 

Also swinging to 12 O'clock would be a bad idea because we are not good enough to return the cluface square to that target line. If you have an outward path then your miss is probably a push, if not it draws back. If you have a 12 O'clock swing path then any face variance can turn what you'd want to expect to be a draw into a fade. 

 

[collapse]

44 minutes ago, craps said:

Most instructors teaches:

Square stance to target line.

Square hips.

Square shoulders.

Fairly strong grip.

Club face slightly open.

Swing to 1:00 O'clock.

Why not Ernie Els setup ? Square everything and neutral grip and swing to 12 O'Clock?

Whatever Ernie does is correct,whatever Furyk does is correct,whatever Sergio does is correct,whatever Trevino does is correct,whatever Bubba does is correct...and so on

[craps]

16 minutes ago, collapse said:

Whatever Ernie does is correct,whatever Furyk does is correct,whatever Sergio does is correct,whatever Trevino does is correct,whatever Bubba does is correct...and so on

I mentioned  Ernie cos' he set up the 'Square Way' Although Humans are not perfect, we do always use a perfect model for most things but for golf  instructors teaches strong grip. Maybe strong is a compensation move.

52 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Actually a neutral grip was the preferred grip taught for many years because it's what Hogan used. I've heard a lot of instructors and tips say not to use a stronger grip. 

I never heard, outside of Erik and Mike, mention lining up with the face open. 99% of the time I've heard line up the face square to the target line at address. 

Because, Ernie probably doesn't swing to 12 O'clock. He probably says he feels like he wants to but I believe Ernie hits a push draw. That being said he needs to have an outward swing path to do so. 

Also swinging to 12 O'clock would be a bad idea because we are not good enough to return the cluface square to that target line. If you have an outward path then your miss is probably a push, if not it draws back. If you have a 12 O'clock swing path then any face variance can turn what you'd want to expect to be a draw into a fade. 

 

If we change the apex of the swing arc then MAYBE we can swing 12 o'clock!

[collapse]

The bottom line is we don't know what the perfect set up is,mainly because it doesn't exist .We know Moe Norman,Ben Hogan,Lee Trevino are all considered the best ball strikers,all wildly different in set ups.

[chspeed]

8 minutes ago, collapse said:

The bottom line is we don't know what the perfect set up is,mainly because it doesn't exist .We know Moe Norman,Ben Hogan,Lee Trevino are all considered the best ball strikers,all wildly different in set ups.

True, but there are a few commonalities in the setup positions of very good golfers, as well as setup positions that require more swing compensations than others. For example, grip more in fingers, etc. When asked to improve a golf swing, many instructors start with those basic setup commonalities instead of introducing more compensations to get the swing to where the golfer wants it to be.

 

[iacas]

@craps, blunt question with your best interests at heart: why do you care about this stuff? Surely there are far more important things - your priorities - to worry about.

If you're doing it just because you're thinking about it, that's fine. But in even thinking about it more, you're not giving that time to the priorities you likely have to fix in your swing.

[craps]

2 hours ago, collapse said:

The bottom line is we don't know what the perfect set up is,mainly because it doesn't exist .We know Moe Norman,Ben Hogan,Lee Trevino are all considered the best ball strikers,all wildly different in set ups.

My intention here is not to find the perfect set up. I am just curious why majority of instructors teaches square everything and swing out with a strong grip.

 

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, craps said:

My intention here is not to find the perfect set up. I am just curious why majority of instructors teaches square everything and swing out with a strong grip.

I don't think that's the case, and it's on you to prove that first.

That said, I would say based on my experience that the majority of amateurs:

• have a weak, palmy grip.
• swing to the left (pulls/slices).

So even if they are teaching "something" perhaps it's to counter the majority of what they see happening among their students?

P.S. We don't even teach a square setup all the time. Look at the driving videos we have here where we advocate many adopt a closed setup.

[collapse]

On 11/24/2015, 10:06:53, chspeed said:

True, but there are a few commonalities in the setup positions of very good golfers, as well as setup positions that require more swing compensations than others. For example, grip more in fingers, etc. When asked to improve a golf swing, many instructors start with those basic setup commonalities instead of introducing more compensations to get the swing to where the golfer wants it to be.

 

Ok set up question(which I am sure has been covered ad nauseum)....but in watching Dave Wedzik video and then a Mike Bennett S&T video,I don't see the difference in swing philosophy,they both look like S&T........actually one of the golfers in the MB video looks like DW 15lbs lighter.

Edited November 27, 2015 by collapse

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, collapse said:

Ok set up question(which I am sure has been covered ad nauseum)....but in watching Dave Wedzik video and then a Mike Bennett S&T video,I don't see the difference in swing philosophy,they both look like S&T........actually one of the golfers in the MB video looks like DW 15lbs lighter.

Your post is only five years behind the times, @collapse.

I encourage you to do a little more reading. If any group of people outside of Dave and I has done more to discredit S&T, I don't know who they are.

[collapse]

I only get 5 posts a day as I understand it and this is # 3,so I will just say ....the eye of the beholder may be involved....thanks

[iacas]

24 minutes ago, collapse said:

I only get 5 posts a day as I understand it and this is # 3,so I will just say ....the eye of the beholder may be involved....thanks

The five-post limit applies to the first 24 hours you're a member. You're past that…

Beyond that, say what you want to say or don't say it at all. I have no idea what "the eye of the beholder" means and I don't care to speculate. I feel I'm in a better position than you to know what is 5SK and what is S&T.

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, collapse said:

the eye of the beholder may be involved....thanks

Maybe if the person is blind in that eye. S&T wants the weight forward on the backswing and is a method of swinging. 5SK encompasses all good swings. There is no "5SK swing", it's about educating golfers on what the great players have always done and how they can improve their games.

 

[collapse]

2 hours ago, mvmac said:

Maybe if the person is blind in that eye. S&T wants the weight forward on the backswing and is a method of swinging. 5SK encompasses all good swings. There is no "5SK swing", it's about educating golfers on what the great players have always done and how they can improve their games.

 

Yes,the required 5sk weight shift to the straightened back leg is a notable difference although I don't think the S&T crowd properly identified this as happening since the leg does straighten with the S&T technique.Whatever the case,the 5sk set up and take away seems like a system that can work with some non-intuitive learned body control.

[mvmac]

30 minutes ago, collapse said:

Yes,the required 5sk weight shift

ALL good players shift their weight forward on the downswing.

31 minutes ago, collapse said:

to the straightened back leg is a notable difference although I don't think the S&T crowd properly identified this as happening since the leg does straighten with the S&T technique.

Most good players reduce flex in their trail knee, it's not something exclusive to 5SK or S&T. Look at Spieth, Dustin Johnson, McIlroy, Bubba, Mickelson, etc.

32 minutes ago, collapse said:

Whatever the case,the 5sk set up and take away seems like a system that can work with some non-intuitive learned body control.

There isn't a 5SK "set-up or takeaway", you're missing the point of what 5SK is about.  Don't lump 5SK into a "one-swing" category. 

Yes there may be some preferences with the set-up but you can have all 5 Keys with a flared feet, squared feet, strong grip, weak grip, aim your left, aim your body right, etc.

[collapse]

3 minutes ago, mvmac said:

ALL good players shift their weight forward on the downswing.

Most good players reduce flex in their trail knee, it's not something exclusive to 5SK or S&T. Look at Spieth, Dustin Johnson, McIlroy, Bubba, Mickelson, etc.

There isn't a 5SK "set-up or takeaway", you're missing the point of what 5SK is about.  Don't lump 5SK into a "one-swing" category. 

Yes there may be some preferences with the set-up but you can have all 5 Keys with a flared feet, squared feet, strong grip, weak grip, aim your left, aim your body right, etc.

Ok, but surely I have these components right..Keep the head in place,weight at address on lead foot,weight transfers to back leg on takeaway ,allow  back leg to  straighten. 

[mvmac]

2 minutes ago, collapse said:

Keep the head in place,weight at address on lead foot,weight transfers to back leg on takeaway ,allow  back leg to  straighten. 

Where does 5SK say the weight should be on the lead side at address? Weight is much closer to 50/50 at set-up.

You're correct about the steady head. The weight/pressure shift to the trail side just "happens", even with good S&T swings