MB's Centripetal Force Thread

[Mike Boatright]

This morning I wen't to beautiful turkey creek golf club and hit my usual 200 balls driving range session. I had the usual warm up with my sw hitting them well,then went to my 5 iron hybrids you know just the basics. Iv'e been working on getting a backwards spine tilt at address to prevent a sway and let me tell you I think I have figured it out.! I hit my callaway 9.5 degree razr driver 40 times in a row 265 yards carry with a high draw or a slight push. The epiphany came to me from reading this forum obsessively and getting into the weight forward topic. What I realized is the weight forward is really centrifugal force that can only be applied from a negative position in relation to the ball it's that simple.

When I had a sway I got behind the ball ''AKA THE NEGATIVE POSITION'' From here I had less ability to apply centrifugal force but still managed to boom drives maybe even a little farther sometimes. What I realized is the backswing isn't really a violent action or a load up as it's not utilizing any leverage as of yet. I was making an extremely subtle and smooth backswing that was a bit shorter but maintained a spine tilt . Somewhere in that space of time I just let gravity do it's thing and clear out as smoothly and fully as humanly possible them boom It happened!! I start hitting it nutter 40 times in a row I have never had that kind of consistency before it kinda shocked me to say the least. The irons were less consistent but I had a few 230 yard 3 irons and a 170 yard 7 iron with a swing that felt effortless. Overall I think the basis of having the reverse spine tilt at address allows you to maintain a behind the ball position and eventually you just have to get out of the way and let the forces of nature take it's course. Assuming you have the right ball position and a good grip then the rest should happen more naturally the most will realize just make take.

 

http://mygolfingadventures.com/million-dollar-swing/

[iacas]

I'll keep this short…

I'm glad you found a good feel for the day, but I think that's likely about all you found. I'd be surprised if your swing was noticeably different (i.e. you "changed the picture" to the extent necessary to begin the slow process of actual change) or that the feel will last very long at all.

We know this to be fact, but gravity contributes very little to the golf swing (imagine swinging horizontally, and the clubhead speed you can generate doing that), and centrifugal force really doesn't have anything to do with it - certainly not something like "centrifugal force that can only be applied from a negative position in relation to the ball".

Good luck, but you're still not really doing as you should be doing here in changing the picture, putting in the time, etc. You're looking, seemingly, for some quick fix tip. That ain't golf.

[Mike Boatright]

Your correct that I could fall back into old habits true. I know I was setting up to the ball like Phil here and getting results like no other from less sway and a better turn. Not so much centrifugal force more so centripetal and I don't think your really getting the depiction here as you are the axis of rotation and the head on the club act's upon this force. Your arms act like an extension to the lever and as your body rotates in an orbit the head creates centripetal force whether it's horizontal or vertical it remains similar. In a golf swing you apply a little action and force with your hands but this mechanism is mostly Newtonian physics. This isn't a simple fix it's elegantly complicated yet very easy once you figure it out and is the reason pro's make it look so easy and everyone else analyzes and struggles with static drills that don't apply to motion.

 

The reason it works in a vertical swing when angled back at set up is because your tilted back behind the ball and rotate around an axis. Then as you transfer into a full downswing and release all your weight forward making the mechanics of this force work. You do think that you should get your weight forward correct? The axis of a vertical baseball swing will also be levered  as you being the center it's very similar and is why baseball players are trying throw the bathead. In golf it's much more similar to a rope with a weight on it except the rope is the shaft and it's a solid. 

 

Take a look at the master Fred couples here he applies this force perfectly makes it look effortless. Forget the length of his swing it could be less than paralleled not the point. Notice how his shift translates into a kinetic motion that makes the clubhead does what it does. If golfers just realized this they would no longer struggle! I was trying to share this if you don'y understand it or disagree with it that's fine

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Good luck, but you're still not really doing as you should be doing here in changing the picture, putting in the time, etc. You're looking, seemingly, for some quick fix tip. That ain't golf.

Also not true Iv'e been putting on what I have learned from this forum on my swing thread and went the range and hit 200 balls and is the reason how I discovered this.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Mike Boatright

[iacas]

31 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Your correct that I could fall back into old habits true.

They're not "old habits." They're your habits from two days ago.

31 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

I know I was setting up to the ball like Phil here and getting results like no other from less sway and a better turn.

You don't know if you had less sway and a better turn. Everyone has had those "good" days when things feel good and it works… but their swing is still the same.

31 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Not so much centrifugal force more so centripetal and I don't think your really getting the depiction here as you are the axis of rotation and the head on the club act's upon this force.

I have a few degrees in the sciences. And no, this is not contributing significantly to your swing. The force is only really inward around impact, and that's just because you're holding onto the grip (the club wants to fly out of your hands one way, but you're pulling it inward by holding onto the grip, so it keeps traveling in the arc).

31 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

The reason it works in a vertical swing when angled back at set up is because your tilted back behind the ball and rotate around an axis. Then as you transfer into a full downswing and release all your weight forward making the mechanics of this force work. You do think that you should get your weight forward correct? The axis of a vertical baseball swing will also be levered  as you being the center it's very similar and is why baseball players are trying throw the bathead. In golf it's much more similar to a rope with a weight on it except the rope is the shaft and it's a solid.

Baseball players do not get their weight forward. Measured against their stance, their weight is well back. Their force spikes under the front foot, but the weight stays back. Not really an option in golf; the ball is on the ground.

Never mind that the shaft and forearm have about a 90° angle, or 50°, or whatever - they're not inline - for the entire downswing…

You know not of what you speak, @Mike Boatright. Not from a science standpoint, and very little from a golf standpoint. I'm sure you're a good guy and all, but I suggest you do more learning and less spouting. Ask questions, don't proclaim to have found the answers.

31 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Also not true Iv'e been putting on what I have learned from this forum on my swing thread and went the range and hit 200 balls and is the reason how I discovered this.

You haven't discovered anything, and I doubt very much that you even changed very much, as I said in my first post.

[Rainmaker]

I've been working on the same thing . .I don't have a true "sway" anymore but I still have a big forward lunge. 

To work on it, I've tried various ideas and drills to get the right feeling.  Squishing the tomato, butt up against a chair, alignment stick up against the left leg,etc. 

I've found/assembled a drill that I am practicing now - and it is this:

In my garage hitting area, I set up a chair so that it touches my butt at address.  I make half-swings (maybe a little more) trying to feel my butt "wipe" the chair going back and NOT SLIDING into impact.  At the same time, I'm also focusing on trying to feel my left wrist turn DOWN into impact (another thing I'm working on). 

So . .just like that . .maybe a hundred half-swings a day or so.    Until I get to where I can make solid contact like this just about every time . .I'm just going to keep working on it (unless it seems like it's not helping then I'll try something else).  All the while, I'm taking videos . .face-on, especially, to make sure I'm doing more of what I want and not introducing other issues.

 

[sirhacksalot]

I was on a Gravity golf kick just long enough to buy and read David Lees book for $3 on ebay.  He talks about something that he calls the "counter fall" back and diagonally left toward the left foot to balance the centri(-which ever one).  It was a cool week but it was just another name for a more vertical swing. Call it the Peak Performance, the vertical, the gravity, etc. My handicap is not as low as yours and it helped me not come to far back but it hurt me in face control and path.  So I didn't stick with it. 

[Mike Boatright]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Baseball players do not get their weight forward

A lot of baseball players hit on their front foot such as hunter pence and a few others especially the old school ones like Ted Williams known as one of the greatest hitters of all time.

Anyway there a tons of mechanics in the swing such as timing,athleticism grip and alignment but overall understating that inertial forces and leverage play 75% of hitting the ball vs forcing it will help a lot of players out and make the game way less complicated in feel vs steps and checkpoints etc..

3 hours ago, iacas said:

You know not of what you speak, @Mike Boatright. not from a science standpoint

Ok prove me otherwise why are you getting so threatened and defensive kinda weird?  

 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Mike Boatright

[Mike Boatright]

3 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

I've been working on the same thing . .I don't have a true "sway" anymore but I still have a big forward lunge. 

To work on it, I've tried various ideas and drills to get the right feeling.  Squishing the tomato, butt up against a chair, alignment stick up against the left leg,etc. 

I've found/assembled a drill that I am practicing now - and it is this:

In my garage hitting area, I set up a chair so that it touches my butt at address.  I make half-swings (maybe a little more) trying to feel my butt "wipe" the chair going back and NOT SLIDING into impact.  At the same time, I'm also focusing on trying to feel my left wrist turn DOWN into impact (another thing I'm working on). 

So . .just like that . .maybe a hundred half-swings a day or so.    Until I get to where I can make solid contact like this just about every time . .I'm just going to keep working on it (unless it seems like it's not helping then I'll try something else).  All the while, I'm taking videos . .face-on, especially, to make sure I'm doing more of what I want and not introducing other issues.

 

90% of the golf swing is getting behind the ball at address or on the backswing. If you can do this then you can initiate the clearing of your hips as much as possible on the downswing. If you can do this in smooth manner and time it naturally then the club head will accelerate very fast into the ball and you will be good. A little sway sucks but it's better then your head,or upper body going towards the target in any manner on your backswing. The only thing that can happen from there is falling back and losing about 50% of your club head speed. Try to get a proper set up,but if you happen to come off the ball 3 inches it's better than trying to stay static. Ask your self whats worse a 5 yard push or pull on the green or a balloon fade that comes up 40 yards short in the water, or worse a snap hook driver because of a reverse pivot.

[Rainmaker]

7 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

90% of the golf swing is getting behind the ball at address or on the backswing. If you can do this then you can initiate the clearing of your hips as much as possible on the downswing. If you can do this in smooth manner and time it naturally then the club head will accelerate very fast into the ball and you will be good. A little sway sucks but it's better then your head,or upper body going towards the target in any manner on your backswing. The only thing that can happen from there is falling back and losing about 50% of your club head speed. Try to get a proper set up,but if you happen to come off the ball 3 inches it's better than trying to stay static. Ask your self whats worse a 5 yard push or pull on the green or a balloon fade that comes up 40 yards short in the water, or worse a snap hook driver because of a reverse pivot.

 

Yeah, what I'm doing is not too bad (depending on your perspective . .I'm an almost middle-aged fat guy). . when I'm having a good day, you'd almost think I was good . .as long as you were standing behind me.   

Edited April 1, 2016 by Rainmaker
Clarity

[Mike Boatright]

16 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

 

Yeah, what I'm doing is not too bad . . when I'm having a good day, you'd almost think I was good . .as long as you were standing behind me.   

Hey as long as it works man Ideally I think it's best to set up with a spine Tilt like this \ And rotate around that axis doing this makes it almost impossible to sway or reverse pivot.. This is what I have been working on lately with superior results and some weird pushes though? 

I find it odd that every new fix has new misses. If you happen to set up to the golf ball in a more I Position and come off the ball minimally it can still be effective as long as you come off the ball a little.. Use this idea or shot for more of a 6 iron or something similar. I really think the reverse pivot is the death all to golf shots in general and is the Achilles heel to most golfers. Were talking slices,snap hooks,shanks,topped shots,chunks it's just all the awful shots.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Mike Boatright

[saevel25]

43 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

A lot of baseball players hit on their front foot such as hunter pence and a few others especially the old school ones like Ted Williams known as one of the greatest hitters of all time.

What does baseball have to do with golf, nothing. 

45 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Anyway there a tons of mechanics in the swing such as timing.

Majority of which can be taken care of by having good turn rates. Timing is overrated by those who struggle with poor mechanics. 

46 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Ok prove me otherwise why are you getting so threatened and defensive kinda weird?  

Threatened, LOL!!!!! 

25 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

90% of the golf swing is getting behind the ball at address or on the backswing.

Not it isn't. 

25 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

The only thing that can happen from there is falling back and losing about 50% of your club head speed. .

You pulling numbers out of your butt again? I played golf for years having my head dip back and I didn't lose 50% of my power. If I did I would be hitting the ball 570-600 yards. Seriously do, stop making up shit to support your week arguments. I've probably gained 3-5% over the past 5 years of work. I am not sure some of that is just from being fitted better for a driver. 

 

[Pretzel]

1 hour ago, Mike Boatright said:

Ok prove me otherwise why are you getting so threatened and defensive kinda weird?  

I would actually say that he's going on the offensive against misinformation. He is not being defensive, and he argued his points quite well. You the proceeded to ignore his points and tell him he had no proof. 

You lack an understanding of centrifugal and centripetal forces. There is no such thing, in all actuality, as a centrifugal force. Anyone with a basic high school physics education can tell you this. "Centrifugal force" is better known by a term called "inertia", meaning that the club wants to continue in a straight line rather than a circle. There is no physical force, only the momentum of the club carrying it in a straight line unless it is acted upon by an outside force (which would be the centripetal force). 

Physics Background from University of Virginia

Quote

It is important to note that the centrifugal force does not actually exist. We feel it, because we are in a non-inertial coordinate system. [emphasis added]

Since you are basing your entire theory upon a force that you misunderstand, and which doesn't actually exist in reality, it can easily be reasonably inferred that the rest of your argument is likely unsound as well. I would recommend that you do a small amount of research before you post your epiphanies, and you might learn something in the process.

 

Also, as for the gravity thing: Your club is approximately 2 meters off the ground (generously speaking) when you finish your backswing. If you just sit there and let gravity "do it's thing", your club would be traveling at approximately 6.25 m/s (~14 mph) when it hit the ball, imparting a "whopping" amount of energy in the form of 4.9 Joules (assuming perfect energy transfer) to the golf ball, allowing the golf ball to take off with an initial velocity of 14.75 ms (using the ~45 gram weight of a golf ball) or about 33 mph. This would give your ball a maximum carry distance of ~22. 2 meters with a perfect launch angle of 45* and no spin, meaning you can hit the ball 24.27 yards with gravity alone (assuming you take perfect advantage of it). 

[Mike Boatright]

15 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

What does baseball have to do with golf, nothing. 

Majority of which can be taken care of by having good turn rates. Timing is overrated by those who struggle with poor mechanics. 

Threatened, LOL!!!!! 

Not it isn't. 

You pulling numbers out of your butt again? I played golf for years having my head dip back and I didn't lose 50% of my power. If I did I would be hitting the ball 570-600 yards. Seriously do, stop making up shit to support your week arguments. I've probably gained 3-5% over the past 5 years of work. I am not sure some of that is just from being fitted better for a driver. 

 

Stop disagreeing with everything I say it's annoying! ''If you disagree explain yourself instead of saying no not ahh no it isn't like a 12 year old''. Baseball and golf are forever integrated like peanut butter and jelly they have a long history together and many similarities in the swing. I don't know what turn rates is maybe you can educate me on that one? Yes you can lose up to 50% of your club head speed by reverse pivoting and duck hooking it depends on how you hit it and how good you are. If you have played for years with a reverse pivot and still hit it good then it's very minimal and you lose only a little speed. I have hit a 280 yard drives and then a 150 yard snap hook from a reverse pivot some players miss the ball entirely that's a 100% loss, so yeah it's a killer! in fact I say 90% of the swing because a reverse pivot is the number one killer in the golf swing once you do it you can't hit a playable golf shot unless you top one and roll it out there in play,or are really strong and arm it out there 220 yards.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Mike Boatright

[Pretzel]

3 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Yes you can lose up to 50% of your club head speed by reverse pivoting and duck hooking it depends on how you hit it and how good you are.

Bulls***. I'm going to emphatically and specifically call you out to ask you to prove this and provide a source for this statistic. Remember what you said:

3 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

If you disagree explain yourself

I'm asking you to explain why you disagree.

I would also like for you to please prove that duck-hooking the golf ball reduces your clubhead speed. It reduces how far you hit the ball, I agree, but I would like for you to prove that a duck hook will produce a lower clubhead speed than a normal shot would.

[Tat14]

Good times!

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, Mike Boatright said:

Stop disagreeing with everything I say it's annoying! 

Start saying logical stuff and back it up with facts instead of made up numbers. 

1 minute ago, Mike Boatright said:

Baseball and golf are forever integrated like peanut butter and jelly they have a long history together and many similarities in the swing. 

This has been discussed in another thread before. I believe you were in on that one as well. There is very little between the two movements. The golf swing is it's own beast entirely. 

2 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

I don't know what turn rates is maybe you can educate me on that one?

How the rate in which your hips and torso turns compared to your arms. Most amateurs don't turn their hips enough on the back swing or on the downswing. 

3 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Yes you can lose up to 50% of your club head speed by reverse pivoting and duck hooking it depends on how you hit it and how good you are. 

Actually, you have nearly the same club head speed. I don't drop to a 62 mph club head speed on a duck hook. You are wrong that you lose 50% of your club head speed. 

6 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

I have hit a 280 yard drives and then a 150 yard snap hook from a reverse pivot some players miss the ball entirely that's a 100% loss, so yeah it's a killer! 

Sometimes people thin iron shots and hit the ball 50% farther than they wanted. There I can play that game as well. 

[Mike Boatright]

Just now, Pretzel said:

Bulls***. I'm going to emphatically and specifically call you out to ask you to prove this and provide a source for this statistic.

I would also like for you to please prove that duck-hooking the golf ball reduces your clubhead speed. It reduces how far you hit the ball, I agree, but I would like for you to prove that a duck hook will produce a lower clubhead speed than a normal shot would.

Gees dude use common sense it's just a laymen s term statement maybe it's 17.5% who cares!. If you want scientific proof get a basketball and hop on to the court and proceed to the 3 point line. From here take a running start and shoot that ball. Then try it taking 4 steps backwards and shooting the ball otherwise known as a fade way shot. Generally speaking you never see fade away 3 pointers because the reverse motion takes heat off the shot,hence you lose power duhh. The reverse pivot causes not only the host of awful shots I described,but also a loss in speed because your hooking it and falling off of it there really in no argument on your side at all. It's like your asking me to prove the moon is smaller then the Earth I'll say trust me it is.

 

 

This photo depicts the worst of the worst.

 

9 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

 

.

[Mike Boatright]

21 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

I would actually say that he's going on the offensive against misinformation. He is not being defensive, and he argued his points quite well. You the proceeded to ignore his points and tell him he had no proof. 

You lack an understanding of centrifugal and centripetal forces. There is no such thing, in all actuality, as a centrifugal force. Anyone with a basic high school physics education can tell you this. "Centrifugal force" is better known by a term called "inertia", meaning that the club wants to continue in a straight line rather than a circle. There is no physical force, only the momentum of the club carrying it in a straight line unless it is acted upon by an outside force (which would be the centripetal force). 

Physics Background from University of Virginia

Since you are basing your entire theory upon a force that you misunderstand, and which doesn't actually exist in reality, it can easily be reasonably inferred that the rest of your argument is likely unsound as well. I would recommend that you do a small amount of research before you post your epiphanies, and you might learn something in the process.

 

Also, as for the gravity thing: Your club is approximately 2 meters off the ground (generously speaking) when you finish your backswing. If you just sit there and let gravity "do it's thing", your club would be traveling at approximately 6.25 m/s (~14 mph) when it hit the ball, imparting a "whopping" amount of energy in the form of 4.9 Joules (assuming perfect energy transfer) to the golf ball, allowing the golf ball to take off with an initial velocity of 14.75 ms (using the ~45 gram weight of a golf ball) or about 33 mph. This would give your ball a maximum carry distance of ~22. 2 meters with a perfect launch angle of 45* and no spin, meaning you can hit the ball 24.27 yards with gravity alone (assuming you take perfect advantage of it). 

I meant centripetal force are you saying it's not real let me check...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centripetal_force#Sources_of_centripetal_force  Yup it's real and it's based around a center axis ''AKA'' you the golfer and a lever with a tethered object the club head. It's more complicated in it's true nature and goes into advanced mathematics, orbital velocities and such which are beyond me. Just like orbit of the moon is gravity because it's actually just falling,kinda dropping a rock from a building it's still the same force just smaller. The weight of a club head being 220 grams is tethered to a 45 inch shaft and 3 1/2 foot arm. This extension along with some added force from your hands in an orbit around an axis ''AKA your body" utilizes the lever,gravity and centripetal force.

Maybe this is just beyond most people and they don't get it oh well?