Orlando Gay Night Club Shooting

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, Elmer said:

He was denied a sale for body armor by the owner. No law restricted this sale. The owner felt his request to purchase high grade body armor and 1000 rounds was suspicious.
I think a better question should be why are people allowed to by 1000 rounds and Body armor?
Paper targets dont shoot back, neither do deer!
In what circumstance does a private (non-law enforcement citizen) require body armor and 1000 rounds, together?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/energy-environment/the-latest-senate-sends-facebook-ceo-letter-about-gunman/2016/06/15/bcf1c99c-3357-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html

"The owner of a gun shop in Florida says the gunman in the Orlando nightclub shootings came to his shop to buy body armor and 1,000 rounds of ammunition about five weeks before the rampage.

Robert Abell, co-owner of Lotus Gunworks in Jensen Beach, says the shop declined the sale because the customer raised suspicions by requesting a high grade of body armor typically used by law enforcement.

Abell says the young man left empty-handed and that the shop alerted the FBI, but since no sale was made, the shop did not check the man’s ID and had no name to give authorities.

 

Abell says store staff realized the customer was nightclub shooter Omar Mateen only after seeing reports about the carnage in Orlando."

Yeah, it's probably good that the gun store owner and salesmen are likely avid shooters and NRA members, and knew it was suspicious to want that kind of body armor.

The issue I had was when the gun store owner reported the incident to the FBI, although he did not have a name as no sale was made. http://abcnews.go.com/US/orlando-shooter-turned-gun-store-suspicious/story?id=39901107&cid=abcn_tco

Quote

Unfortunately, it slipped through the cracks.

 

2 hours ago, newtogolf said:

Private security guards require body armor, on it's own it's not a flag, combined with 1000 rounds of ammo is the flag.  

It's not unusual to purchase 1000 rounds, but the body armor was likely the trigger?

[Elmer]

26 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Yeah, it's probably good that the gun store owner and salesmen are likely avid shooters and NRA members, and knew it was suspicious to want that kind of body armor.

The issue I had was when the gun store owner reported the incident to the FBI, although he did not have a name as no sale was made. http://abcnews.go.com/US/orlando-shooter-turned-gun-store-suspicious/story?id=39901107&cid=abcn_tco

 

It's not unusual to purchase 1000 rounds, but the body armor was likely the trigger?

Do you have an issue with the Owner not getting a name?
or
With the owner reporting the incident to the FBI?

 

I think it was the combo that raised a flag.
Kind of like buying gasoline and a match!
On their own they do not raise suspicion, together you can drawn a conclusion that the purchaser might be up to no good!

Edited June 23, 2016 by Elmer

[Lihu]

17 minutes ago, Elmer said:

Do you have an issue with the Owner not getting a name?
or
With the owner reporting the incident to the FBI?

The worse one is the FBI not flagging anything nor getting the surveillance footage then analyzing it prior to the event. The gun store owner is a reputable sounding person and sounds like he could filter out the majority of the crackpots leaving the FBI with only the really suspicions people.

The gun store owner did not get a name, because he didn't make a sale.

 

17 minutes ago, Elmer said:

On their own they do not raise suspicion, together you can drawn a conclusion that the purchaser might be up to no good!

Yes, the combination was definitely alarm sounding, but still, no sale was made. Had the FBI reacted properly to the gun store owner's call, they could have gotten the surveillance footage and searched for the person's name.

 

 

What baffles me is the fact that the FBI and other government agencies are seemingly on low alert for terrorists almost immediately after the San Bernardino attacks? Asleep at the wheel so to speak?

Los Angeles caught our would be attacker, but there's really no excuse for anyone else being asleep? This type of thing could happen anywhere and to anyone.

[Elmer]

55 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The worse one is the FBI not flagging anything nor getting the surveillance footage then analyzing it prior to the event. The gun store owner is a reputable sounding person and sounds like he could filter out the majority of the crackpots leaving the FBI with only the really suspicions people.

The gun store owner did not get a name, because he didn't make a sale.

 

Yes, the combination was definitely alarm sounding, but still, no sale was made. Had the FBI reacted properly to the gun store owner's call, they could have gotten the surveillance footage and searched for the person's name.

 

 

What baffles me is the fact that the FBI and other government agencies are seemingly on low alert for terrorists almost immediately after the San Bernardino attacks? Asleep at the wheel so to speak?

Los Angeles caught our would be attacker, but there's really no excuse for anyone else being asleep? This type of thing could happen anywhere and to anyone.

I think you are asking too much,
If the FBI investigates a person for not buying 1,000 rounds and a vest, 
The FBI would be scrambling alot, especially with no name

If they investigate a citizen under those circumstance and no shooting took place, people would complain that the FBI is gestapo-like and over-reaching. They are infringing upon the privacy and rights of citizens!
Now if the FBI investigates and catches someone before they act, all if good.

Look at the uproar Obama got for taping our phones under Bush's patriot act!

I don't think we get to have both a pro-active FBI (intelligence agency) and 100% civil liberties 

 

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, Elmer said:

I think you are asking too much,
If the FBI investigates a person for not buying 1,000 rounds and a vest, 
The FBI would be scrambling alot, especially with no name

If they investigate a citizen under those circumstance and no shooting took place, people would complain that the FBI is gestapo-like and over-reaching. They are infringing upon the privacy and rights of citizens!
Now if the FBI investigates and catches someone before they act, all if good.

Look at the uproar Obama got for taping our phones under Bush's patriot act!

I don't think we get to have both a pro-active FBI (intelligence agency) and 100% civil liberties 

 

I don't think I'm asking too much for the FBI to further investigate, when a reputable gun store owner who filters out most people and only reports "red flag" ones.

[Dave2512]

3 hours ago, Lihu said:

The gun store owner did not get a name, because he didn't make a sale.

I'd be okay with ammo being behind counters and having to show ID before making the purchase. I get carded to order a drink all the time and I am pushing 50.

[Lihu]

3 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

I'd be okay with ammo being behind counters and having to show ID before making the purchase. I get carded to order a drink all the time and I am pushing 50.

This type of thing makes perfect sense.

Even kids without a formal ID who want to purchase ammunition, should have an alternate form of ID as well like an ***NRA certification ID or something like that.

***Just made this up, but the NRA should sell and distribute IDs to people who need it, like minors.

[Elmer]

3 minutes ago, Lihu said:

This type of thing makes perfect sense.

Even kids without a formal ID who want to purchase ammunition, should have an alternate form of ID as well like an ***NRA certification ID or something like that.

***Just made this up, but the NRA should sell and distribute IDs to people who need it, like minors.

The NRA is a lobbying group, I dont think any ID, where the only prerequiste is you are a "paying memeber" would qualify as legal form of Identification in all states.

What about Non-NRA members, will their driver's license and passport not be enough?
Would this force all gun owners to join the NRA?

[Lihu]

4 minutes ago, Elmer said:

The NRA is a lobbying group, I dont think any ID, where the only prerequiste is you are a "paying memeber" would qualify as legal form of Identification in all states.

What about Non-NRA members, will their driver's license and passport not be enough?
Would this force all gun owners to join the NRA?

NRA is a club, and it wouldn't be a bad idea for all/most gun owners to join.

https://explore.nra.org/

I agree with the organization as a whole and safety training and club and such, and I only disagree with the way they are presenting some things. . .

[newtogolf]

59 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

I'd be okay with ammo being behind counters and having to show ID before making the purchase. I get carded to order a drink all the time and I am pushing 50.

In NY you have to show drivers license to buy ammo.  

[Ernest Jones]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

This type of thing makes perfect sense.

Even kids without a formal ID who want to purchase ammunition, should have an alternate form of ID as well like an ***NRA certification ID or something like that.

***Just made this up, but the NRA should sell and distribute IDs to people who need it, like minors.

How about not letting minors buy ammo? Perhaps requiring a parent or legal guardian...

[newtogolf]

1 minute ago, Ernest Jones said:

How about not letting minors buy ammo? Perhaps requiring a parent or legal guardian...

I'm not sure what the laws are in other states but no one under 18 can buy ammo.  

[Dave2512]

21 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

In NY you have to show drivers license to buy ammo.  

I've seen different things here. Probably because some store owners are lazy and if a person looks "ok" they aren't diligent. At Walmart they ask for ID and dang near make you give them a side view to match you to it just to buy an EDC knife. Gun shops can be indifferent to the point it feels like running into 7-11 to buy milk on the way home.

 

[Ernest Jones]

16 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I'm not sure what the laws are in other states but no one under 18 can buy ammo.  

I should certainly hope so.

@Lihu's post led me to believe otherwise. 

[Lihu]

54 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

I should certainly hope so.

@Lihu's post led me to believe otherwise. 

My mistake. The Federal GCA prevents minors under 18 from buying any kind of ammunition.

[Ernest Jones]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

My mistake. The Federal GCA prevents minors under 18 from buying any kind of ammunition.

And that's a good thing, no?

[Lihu]

Just now, Ernest Jones said:

And that's a good thing, no?

Sigh, yes. It's a good thing, I suppose. . .

[Ernest Jones]

7 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Sigh, yes. It's a good thing, I suppose. . .

Baby steps.