Brexit - Leave or Remain

[ghalfaire]

You Brits did the correct thing in this colonist opinion.  Might suffer some initially but you'll be a lot better off in the longer term.

[Buckeyebowman]

23 hours ago, Silent said:

One of the things I heared before from the Brexit side... but based on what actually? The average annual working time in Greece, Portugal, Italy ánd Spain is higher than in United Kingdom. Also the age when one can take his/her pension is not lower than in United Kingdom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time But hey, endless vacation FTW!

 

Euhm, to travel in EU you need a valid passport as well. Within the Schengen area there's free travel, but one still requires a passport to do so. Besides that, United Kingdom is not even part of Schengen. So besides the fact you seem to mix up EU and Schengen, your comment is untrue regardless.

Well, if he's telling you things which are factual untrue, maybe you should listen to other people as well

A valid point. But, if this guy is spinning a tale, I really have no way of knowing that, just as I have no way of knowing if you are!

Please don't take me the wrong way here. I am not making accusations, I'm just caught between differing opinions.

Overall, I still favor Brexit. The issue must have have been serious enough for a national vote to take place! There must have been enough buttons pushed, enough punishments levied, enough fines, restrictions, regulations imposed to result in that. Enough impositions upon freedom to cause a revolt!

In addition, although I did not quote this post, it had some interesting statistics, although we all remember what Benjamin Disraeli had to say about those, don't we? It was way back in this thread where someone posted the vote percentages broken down by age group. Younger voters, who may have known nothing but the EU, voted overwhelmingly to remain, while older voters, who might have some memory of what real freedom is like, voted overwhelmingly to leave!

This reminds me, back when Russia had it's brief flirtation with democracy, of an interview with an older Russian lady. This was before Putin and his thugs. She had lived her life knowing nothing but Communism. She told the interviewer, "I don't know what to do! No one will tell me what to do!" 

That's what she was used to, and all she wanted! Some government apparatchik to tell her what to do!

So sad!

[Silent]

1 hour ago, Buckeyebowman said:

A valid point. But, if this guy is spinning a tale, I really have no way of knowing that, just as I have no way of knowing if you are!

Please don't take me the wrong way here. I am not making accusations, I'm just caught between differing opinions.

Overall, I still favor Brexit. The issue must have have been serious enough for a national vote to take place! There must have been enough buttons pushed, enough punishments levied, enough fines, restrictions, regulations imposed to result in that. Enough impositions upon freedom to cause a revolt!

In addition, although I did not quote this post, it had some interesting statistics, although we all remember what Benjamin Disraeli had to say about those, don't we? It was way back in this thread where someone posted the vote percentages broken down by age group. Younger voters, who may have known nothing but the EU, voted overwhelmingly to remain, while older voters, who might have some memory of what real freedom is like, voted overwhelmingly to leave!

This reminds me, back when Russia had it's brief flirtation with democracy, of an interview with an older Russian lady. This was before Putin and his thugs. She had lived her life knowing nothing but Communism. She told the interviewer, "I don't know what to do! No one will tell me what to do!" 

That's what she was used to, and all she wanted! Some government apparatchik to tell her what to do!

So sad!

Good post. No worries, I don't take you the wrong way. It's just a bit 'frustrating' that I read so many false assumptions or even lies, even from the Brexit politicians. About how many laws are in Britain because of the EU (which in fact is <10%), what the EU is dictating and what not. Make no mistake, EU and Britain still have to deal with each other. If Britain wants to buy or sell goods to and from EU, they still have to fit in trough the EU rules. But this time they don't have a vote in it.

The one who voted the age group voters was me ;) I don't share your opinion about what it says. The 'EU light' was already in 1973. If they think it was better in the periode before that, with more crime, more unemployment and quite recently 2 wars in Europe, I guess their memory is a bit blurry. Anyway, if others share their opinion about 'real freedom' this Brexit might be the end of United Kingdom with Scotland and Northern Ireland stepping out. In London they're not too happy either with mainland investments allready stopped and company's and banks moving away a minute after the Brexit vote. 

About the Russian lady I feel you. My father in law is from old Sovjet. While working in Europe and seeing (and participating) the benefits of capitalism he still has a Sovjet mentality. Very interesting sometimes....

 

edit: things like this is what I meant in the first alinea: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/27/world/europe/having-won-some-brexit-campaigners-begin-backpedaling.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=b-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1

Quote

Supporters of the “Remain” side have angrily attributed the victory for “Leave” to a campaign of misinformation and even deception. In Cornwall, in the southwest corner of England, where a majority voted to leave, the leader of the county council, John Pollard, demanded that the government provide “investment equal to that provided by the E.U. program.” (The county has gotten about $1.3 billion in European Union assistance over the past 15 years, and was counting on about $550 million more by 2020.)

 

[taxgolf]

I have very mixed feelings about it all. On short terms, Brittain will have a lot to deal with. The Scots, new political leaders etc. I would't be surprised that if (in the long, long) end, the British are better off. It might be a blessing in disguise. The EU needs to reform, that's for sure. The EU needs to have a sound resolutions to the immagration issue. 

[paininthenuts]

Anyway, two days later and the UK has come to a complete halt, despite what the remain campaign told us. Of course, the money markets have taken a bit of a plunge, and share prices have dropped. It was always obvious this would happen, but things will return to normal eventually. Unfortunately the PM resigned, which was a selfish thing to do, as we needed him to stabilize the ship. The Labour party want to get rid of their leader because he went backstage during the campaign, and the Scots want another referendum on leaving the UK. The Scots are very strange people. Per head of capita they receive nearly twice what the English do. They can afford free education at all ages, free prescriptions, and they don't even have to pay in hospital car parks, yet despite a referendum two years ago that indicated they wanted to stay part of the UK, they now want to leave us and be run by the EU.  Their logic amazes me. 

The overwhelming feeling where I live is that of relief and jubilation. Of course, in London it is somewhat different. 

[Abu3baid]

5 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

Anyway, two days later and the UK has come to a complete halt, despite what the remain campaign told us. Of course, the money markets have taken a bit of a plunge, and share prices have dropped. It was always obvious this would happen, but things will return to normal eventually. Unfortunately the PM resigned, which was a selfish thing to do, as we needed him to stabilize the ship. The Labour party want to get rid of their leader because he went backstage during the campaign, and the Scots want another referendum on leaving the UK. The Scots are very strange people. Per head of capita they receive nearly twice what the English do. They can afford free education at all ages, free prescriptions, and they don't even have to pay in hospital car parks, yet despite a referendum two years ago that indicated they wanted to stay part of the UK, they now want to leave us and be run by the EU.  Their logic amazes me. 

The overwhelming feeling where I live is that of relief and jubilation. Of course, in London it is somewhat different. 

I've read about this, and heard from Scots interviewed on the BBC.. Their logic is actually pretty good.  They voted in the referendum before with the understanding that they would be part of the EU, and as the current referendum showed the overwhelmingly voted to remain.  By that same logic it stands that they would want another referendum to leave the UK.. Then again, you of all others can't blame them since all they want is to get their country back, and be their own destiny makers and what ever other reasons they desire.

It will be their own independence day, just like the one the British are having now.  What would amaze me is any of the people who voted to leave the EU would criticize the Scotish for wanting to leave the UK?? 

[Scotsclaff]

4 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

Anyway, two days later and the UK has come to a complete halt, despite what the remain campaign told us. Of course, the money markets have taken a bit of a plunge, and share prices have dropped. It was always obvious this would happen, but things will return to normal eventually. Unfortunately the PM resigned, which was a selfish thing to do, as we needed him to stabilize the ship. The Labour party want to get rid of their leader because he went backstage during the campaign, and the Scots want another referendum on leaving the UK. The Scots are very strange people. Per head of capita they receive nearly twice what the English do. They can afford free education at all ages, free prescriptions, and they don't even have to pay in hospital car parks, yet despite a referendum two years ago that indicated they wanted to stay part of the UK, they now want to leave us and be run by the EU.  Their logic amazes me. 

The overwhelming feeling where I live is that of relief and jubilation. Of course, in London it is somewhat different. 

I wouldn't assume that all the Scottish people are of the same mindset as that orc Sturgeon,IMO she is making the Scottish people look like ****wits and someone should shove a mince pie in her hole.

If there were to be another referendum on the basis that Scotland were to become independant but jump into bed with Brussels again,it wouldn't even be a contest,the Scots would vote no.

On the other hand , if the vote was to go it alone then it could be close.

Personally I'd stay in the United Kingdom but that's just me,I don't get a vote but I do have an opinion even though it doesn't mean much.

 

I don't see any turmoil after the Brexit result,the markets briefly dipped for day and that was all. What I see is the Labour party in a mess and the Tory party leaderless,it's a perfect opportunity for UKIP to step up.  Brexit was the first step, a leader with balls is needed at activate resolution 50 and move the UK forward.

[paininthenuts]

4 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

I've read about this, and heard from Scots interviewed on the BBC.. Their logic is actually pretty good.  They voted in the referendum before with the understanding that they would be part of the EU, and as the current referendum showed the overwhelmingly voted to remain.  By that same logic it stands that they would want another referendum to leave the UK.. Then again, you of all others can't blame them since all they want is to get their country back, and be their own destiny makers and what ever other reasons they desire.

It will be their own independence day, just like the one the British are having now.  What would amaze me is any of the people who voted to leave the EU would criticize the Scotish for wanting to leave the UK?? 

Firstly I should point out that I would love them to leave the UK. All they ever do is moan, and to be honest offer the UK very little in financial terms, other than the oil we dug for them, and that will run out soon anyway. However, based on your logic, should we give London independence because they wanted out? 

4 minutes ago, Scotsclaff said:

I wouldn't assume that all the Scottish people are of the same mindset as that orc Sturgeon,IMO she is making the Scottish people look like ****wits and someone should shove a mince pie in her hole.

If there were to be another referendum on the basis that Scotland were to become independant but jump into bed with Brussels again,it wouldn't even be a contest,the Scots would vote no.

On the other hand , if the vote was to go it alone then it could be close.

Personally I'd stay in the United Kingdom but that's just me,I don't get a vote but I do have an opinion even though it doesn't mean much.

 

I don't see any turmoil after the Brexit result,the markets briefly dipped for day and that was all. What I see is the Labour party in a mess and the Tory party leaderless,it's a perfect opportunity for UKIP to step up.  Brexit was the first step, a leader with balls is needed at activate resolution 50 and move the UK forward.

Obviously a man with common sense. I voted for UKIP at the last general election. It sickens me that some people brand them as racist, whereas I don't think they have ever said anything vaguely racist. The other parties have attempted to make them look like something they aren't. To be concerned about immigration does not make you racist

[Scotsclaff]

3 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

Firstly I should point out that I would love them to leave the UK. All they ever do is moan, and to be honest offer the UK very little in financial terms, other than the oil we dug for them, and that will run out soon anyway. However, based on your logic, should we give London independence because they wanted out? 

I wonder how many Scots you've met............"the oil we dug for them" that's hilarious.  Might as well give Londonistan independence and wall it off.

11 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

Firstly I should point out that I would love them to leave the UK. All they ever do is moan, and to be honest offer the UK very little in financial terms, other than the oil we dug for them, and that will run out soon anyway. However, based on your logic, should we give London independence because they wanted out? 

Obviously a man with common sense. I voted for UKIP at the last general election. It sickens me that some people brand them as racist, whereas I don't think they have ever said anything vaguely racist. The other parties have attempted to make them look like something they aren't. To be concerned about immigration does not make you racist

Glad we agree....................now about those ****wit Scots

[Abu3baid]

25 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

Firstly I should point out that I would love them to leave the UK. All they ever do is moan, and to be honest offer the UK very little in financial terms, other than the oil we dug for them, and that will run out soon anyway. However, based on your logic, should we give London independence because they wanted out? 

Obviously a man with common sense. I voted for UKIP at the last general election. It sickens me that some people brand them as racist, whereas I don't think they have ever said anything vaguely racist. The other parties have attempted to make them look like something they aren't. To be concerned about immigration does not make you racist

I think you are underestimating the economic impact of them leaving the UK.. 

Population wise - 

Quote

Scotland’s population of slightly more than 5 million people is about 8% of the U.K.’s total. Losing that same percentage of the U.S. population would be equivalent to losing almost all of Texas’s 26.45 million residents. (Proportionally, it would be 26.238 million, or all but eight of Texas’s 254 counties.)

GDP - 

Quote

Scotland’s economic contribution to the U.K. is about 9.5% of GDP, including its share of the oil. Texas holds roughly the same importance within the U.S., according to Bureau of Economic Research data.

Land - 

Quote

Scotland represents about 33% of the U.K.’s land area. 

 

Quote

Scotland is home to some of the most successful cattle breeds in history, notably the Angus. The breed first came to the States in the 1800s. That was after the Texas Longhorns, whose history is linked to Spanish exploration.

What are you going to do when you are paying double for the Angus beef.. :)

source - marketwatch-back when the scots were thinking of leaving report.

[Abu3baid]

44 minutes ago, Scotsclaff said:

If there were to be another referendum on the basis that Scotland were to become independant but jump into bed with Brussels again,it wouldn't even be a contest,the Scots would vote no.

On the other hand , if the vote was to go it alone then it could be close.

I think you are wrong in your assessment.

The Scots originally voted to stay as a part of the UK because they were told that if they seceded that meant them leaving the EU.

Basically, they feel like they were duped by having the UK now vote to leave the EU.. Also, the Scots voted in the 60%'s to stay in the EU.

Quote

The Sunday Post did a new poll showing 59% of Scotland now favors secession from the UK, a dramatic bump from the 45% they got in 2014. First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has said it is “highly likely” that Scotland will hold another referendum.

That’s because in the 2014 vote, Scottish voters were warned that secession from the UK meant leaving the European Union, and with the UK turning around a year and a half later and withdrawing anyhow, many 2014 voters are feeling betrayed.

 Scots strongly back secession now

[paininthenuts]

13 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

I think you are underestimating the economic impact of them leaving the UK.. 

Population wise - 

GDP - 

Land - 

 

What are you going to do when you are paying double for the Angus beef.. :)

source - marketwatch-back when the scots were thinking of leaving report.

LOL. I am a vegetarian. Honestly 

[newtogolf]

3 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

Anyway, two days later and the UK has come to a complete halt, despite what the remain campaign told us. Of course, the money markets have taken a bit of a plunge, and share prices have dropped. It was always obvious this would happen, but things will return to normal eventually. Unfortunately the PM resigned, which was a selfish thing to do, as we needed him to stabilize the ship. The Labour party want to get rid of their leader because he went backstage during the campaign, and the Scots want another referendum on leaving the UK. The Scots are very strange people. Per head of capita they receive nearly twice what the English do. They can afford free education at all ages, free prescriptions, and they don't even have to pay in hospital car parks, yet despite a referendum two years ago that indicated they wanted to stay part of the UK, they now want to leave us and be run by the EU.  Their logic amazes me. 

The overwhelming feeling where I live is that of relief and jubilation. Of course, in London it is somewhat different. 

My understanding based on past reading is that the EU was very hesitant to accept Scotland as an independent and they were encouraged to remain part of the UK.  Spain and other countries have been very hesitant to accept new countries to the union.  

It appears Scotland has to be careful they aren't used by the EU to coax England back into the EU.   If Scotland votes to be independent of the UK so they can be part of the EU and they don't get accepted into the EU, they will be in a very bad spot.  

[Abu3baid]

1 hour ago, newtogolf said:

My understanding based on past reading is that the EU was very hesitant to accept Scotland as an independent and they were encouraged to remain part of the UK.  Spain and other countries have been very hesitant to accept new countries to the union.  

It appears Scotland has to be careful they aren't used by the EU to coax England back into the EU.   If Scotland votes to be independent of the UK so they can be part of the EU and they don't get accepted into the EU, they will be in a very bad spot.  

Why will they be in a bad spot exactly?  They will have captured their freedom from the UK no?

They have resources and if they are able to pull out from the UK it will be a new start, an independent one.  Plus, they obviously don't have the same vision as the rest of England.

[Lihu]

11 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

Why will they be in a bad spot exactly?  They will have captured their freedom from the UK no?

They have resources and if they are able to pull out from the UK it will be a new start, an independent one.  Plus, they obviously don't have the same vision as the rest of England.

The issue is just like Britain going it alone. The economies have all become linked during the time they were included in EU. With Scotland it will be worse because they have services provided as UK.

My guess is that Ireland and Scotland together can join EU without too much opposition?

[Silent]

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The issue is just like Britain going it alone. The economies have all become linked during the time they were included in EU. With Scotland it will be worse because they have services provided as UK.

My guess is that Ireland and Scotland together can join EU without too much opposition?

Ireland already is, and will stay, part of EU. I guess you mean Northern Ireland, but also a lot of Brits are living there. Either way the Brexit has a lot of negative side-effects people will have to deal with. I wouldn't be too surprised that in the end it won't happen after all. This is an interesting post I stumbled upon somewhere about it:

Quote

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost. 

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How? 

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-manoeuvred and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

 

[Abu3baid]

26 minutes ago, Silent said:

Ireland already is, and will stay, part of EU. I guess you mean Northern Ireland, but also a lot of Brits are living there. Either way the Brexit has a lot of negative side-effects people will have to deal with. I wouldn't be too surprised that in the end it won't happen after all. This is an interesting post I stumbled upon somewhere about it:

Yeah, it was an interesting outlook and I feel it was right on..  DC isn't a fool, and knew exactly when to fold his cards.

[Lihu]

25 minutes ago, Silent said:

Ireland already is, and will stay, part of EU. I guess you mean Northern Ireland, but also a lot of Brits are living there. Either way the Brexit has a lot of negative side-effects people will have to deal with. I wouldn't be too surprised that in the end it won't happen after all. This is an interesting post I stumbled upon somewhere about it:

Yes, I meant that, and Britain will see "refugees" coming over.

It's not really practical. It would be exactly like one of our states decedent from the union. As much as I don't like the corruption and many stupid policies of the United States, I am hopeful things will get better. Historically, they have.

The quote you included was very interesting reading.