Hip bump or hip turn? You be the judge..

[bunkerputt]

bunkerputt,

DeanS,

I thought a bit more about your comments last night, specifically those related to pulling the arms straight down at the start of the transition and how you seem to have some improvement from this move. One key principle in downswing hand path is straight lines preserve lag, curves cause release . Let me explain what I mean by this... Hold a club out horizontally with your palm down and a 90° angle set in your wrists like they would be at the top of the backswing. Now, line up against a wall so that the club is close and parallel to the wall. If you move your hand across the wall, does the club release? Of course not, because the direction of travel of the majority of the mass of the club is directly in line with the path of your hand, which happens to be the same as the direction the shaft is pointing. Now, holding the club in the same way, spin around really fast like you are standing at the center of a merry-go-round. If you have a loose grip on the club, you will find that it releases and the 90° angle set in the wrists decreases considerably. What's the difference? Well, when you impart some velocity to the club, you are imparting it in a single, straight-line direction. When you are curving your hands, you are constantly changing this direction, but the club is still moving as if you had imparted motion in a straight line. And it "wants" to stay going in that direction because of Newton's first law of motion. Consequently, it races outside the direction of the curvature and we notice, as golfers, that we have lost lag. This principle can be observed by comparing the downswing hand paths of two golfers, Anthony Kim, and Sergio Garcia with a spline tool in a program like V1 golf. You will notice that AK's downswing path is much more circular at the start of the swing than Sergio's or even Ben Hogan's who pretty much move the hands straight down towards the ground. Consequently, AK loses a bit of lag compared to Sergio or Hogan. Now, he still hits it a mile because he is rotating faster than anyone I've seen in my life, and I think we'd be hard pressed to say that he is really "losing" his lag, only that it is certainly true that his release occurs earlier than Sergio's or Hogan's. I've always believed that this lag is a big contributor to the quality of ballstriking in both Sergio and Hogan. Back to your case, what you may be noticing is that when you move your hands downward actively, you are creating a straight line motion that preserves lag in your downswing. Now, the question remains, assuming it is more desirable to have lag like Sergio's over AK's, what is the proper way to power this kind of move in a repeatable way? I don't really have an answer to that at this point in my understanding of the golf swing. I would only point you to Ben Hogan's books, other reference material's, etc. so that you can find out in your own study. If you want to research this topic of hand path more thoroughly, I'd recommend doing a google search on "Aiming Point". It seems to contain some good information on generating an initially narrow downswing action.

[Phil McGleno]

This thread's a great example of why some people are paid to teach the golf swing and others get 13 shots from a scratch player.

[iacas]

One thing I figured out when reading these that didn't seem to be highlighted was the assumption:

They have. Every measurable part of that area of the body moves forward, it doesn't just rotate.

Their belt moves forward. The opposite side - the bottom of their back - moves forward. In a rotational move, one of those is going to move backwards when the other goes forwards.

This didn't quite jive with what I had read in several books regarding the rotation of the hips in the transition.

Because the forward push of the lower and middle body is rarely talked about, hence the title and existence of the other thread. Everyone talks about rotation, and most higher handicappers rotate

too much , throw the club out over the plane, cut across it, and slice or pull. They never get their weight left because their hips don't get left to start the swing. They cast, throw their arms at the ball, and some fake their follow through by pushing off their right foot to get left well after the ball is gone.

Namely, that the swing is started by rotating the lower body towards the target.

Horrible advice.

Most people would parrot the latest tip from Golf Digest and say it happens at the start with a "slight bump" followed by a turn. I think this advice is dead wrong.

That's not the "latest tip." It goes back to Ben Hogan and Bobby Jones before that. If I looked in Vardon's book it'd probably mention it there as well.

It's also dead right depending on your definition of "slight." I'd call the hip bumps used by pros and better players to be extreme, not "slight," but to a better player and to an instructor I suppose six to eight inches of movement is "slight." It doesn't feel as big as it is in reality. And very, very little of that is gained by rotation. Good players rarely have to worry about rotating. Yes, their hips start rotating immediately and while they're still pushing their center forward. The actions happen almost simultaneously.

Particularly because it implies something that just doesn't happen, namely a distinct lateral motion and a moment when the lateral motion stops and the rotation begins.

It doesn't imply that to me at all. The golf swing is a fluid concert of movement, not move A, now move B, now move C, now move D, etc.

Unless you've spent only a few minutes playing or watching golf, I don't think that advice implies that to anyone. Nobody literally slides their hips forward only, stops at some point, and then rotates only.

Now, regarding the previously stated assumption that lateral shift implies lateral motion, consider the following animated diagram I came up with to show how this assumption is false. It starts from the address position and shows a "through the spine" view of the hips:

Two things. One, it's incorrect to label it an assumption. It's proven fact.

Second, your GIF shows the pivot point moving to the right butt-cheek to start the downswing? There's one of the several fatal flaws in that image. That doesn't happen. The second fatal flaw? The pivot point moves from the right butt-cheek to the left hip joint at some point? How on earth do you time that? When does that occur? It doesn't happen.

Note the key point of the diagram:

Straw man argument. It's entirely possible to hit a golf ball with the back of the golf club and a normal setup and grip position, too, but that doesn't mean that's how you

should hit a golf ball. You're basing your opinion on a severely flawed diagram when we have tons of evidence, 3D models, etc. to the contrary.

Now, I don't have any real evidence that my choices for the pivot points are accurate. But it does show what I think we are seeing in Tiger and others' swings:

They're sliding. Again, we do have evidence of this. We have balance plate measurements. We have the 3D rendering models of golfers. We have video from every possible angle.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here, but I think it's wrong, wrong, wrong.

Perhaps those with the swing thoughts of "bump then turn" may actually be accomplishing the motion you describe but just think about it differently.

I don't think so. Nobody who thinks "bump and turn" spins out around their right butt-cheek to start the downswing.

The only thing I take question with in your illustration is perhaps the pivot axis on the backswing isn't the center but more over the rear leg.

It's not there either. The right hip moves backwards (away from the ball I mean) and upwards (away from the ground). That's another flaw in the diagram: he's showing the hips as rotating around a vertical center. They're not - they're closer to the spine angle than vertical - which is why when you rotate back the right hip goes back and up.

It may look like a lateral movement, but it is more the left knee moving toward the target than the hips. Tiger loses control when his hips spin too fast. There is a rotation of the hips, but it must be in sync with the arms.

Right, he loses control when his hips spin too fast - that's how he gets stuck. Better players get stuck when their hips go too fast, worse players throw the club out over the plane.

He maintains better control when he pushes his hips (tailbone, left knee - whatever part you want to think of) longer. And obviously the left knee is pretty well connected to the left hip... where it goes, the hip goes. The only way it can go forward without the hip going forward is if you bend the left knee forward (despite the fact that it's pointing roughly 80 degrees away from that direction... There's no joint between the knee and the hip. If the left knee goes forward, so too goes the left hip.

That seems like the key issue for what's going on here, notably how exactly does the player post up on the left leg so that he (she) can rotate around it.

Now you're assuming that you rotate around your left hip. The reality is that the left hip still moves up and back (away from where the ball was), just like the right hip at the start of the backswing.

[iacas]

One more thing: if the picture in the avatar is you, then what you're saying probably makes sense to you, because the finish position of the guy in that photo is nothing like what we see in pros. Your hips (both, but mostly your left) is well behind your left foot, your weight is nowhere near being 99% on your front foot, and you likely flip at the ball and hit a lot of fat and thin shots. The ones you do catch cleanly, you probably don't take a divot or even really scuff the ground.






.

[iacas]

I claim that any intentional lateral movement is misguided and that lateral motion can be accomplished by purely rotational means.

Yes, and you claim so incorrectly. I'm not going to re-hash it, though:

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthr...467#post377467

I'm curious if you believe that there is an intentional lateral slide, regardless of how little, toward the target at the top of the backswing.

There is. It may not even be a conscious move (certainly the goal is to make it a subconscious thing), but yes, definitely. Proven fact - look at 3D models. Your animated GIF doesn't hold a candle to them.

This principle can be observed by comparing the downswing hand paths of two golfers, Anthony Kim, and Sergio Garcia with a spline tool in a program like V1 golf. You will notice that AK's downswing path is much more circular at the start of the swing than Sergio's or even Ben Hogan's who pretty much move the hands straight down towards the ground. Consequently, AK loses a bit of lag compared to Sergio or Hogan.

I reject the premise of this argument. Sergio gets more lag because he moves his hands while the clubhead stays in the same position. AK's clubhead moves a little bit. Sergio has a freaky amount of lateral movement in his wrists.

AK and Sergio both maintain tremendous width on the backswing. Assuming they keep their left arms fairly straight from the top of the backswing to impact, the only way they can move their hands in a straight line is to move them off the plane. Any rotation will create an arc.

[TN94z]

That's fine. You've pointed out what happens, but not how it happens....as if I said, "Define slap", and the response was, "My cheek is red". We all know that there is an observed and very noticeable lateral movement of the hips in the downswing. There's certainly no question about that, whether it is 6 inches or not. The question that I am concerned with is the mechanism by which this shift happens. What I am even more curious about is whether people who think they are supposed to "bump" are intentionally trying to jut their hips in some direction toward the target like Elvis Presley on stage. I claim that any intentional lateral movement is misguided and that lateral motion can be accomplished by purely rotational means. But maybe by "bump" someone really means the same thing I am talking about. That was what I meant by "Define bump". I'm curious if you believe that there is an intentional lateral slide, regardless of how little, toward the target at the top of the backswing.

Yes, I do believe there is. I don't necessarily think that it is something one "thinks" about while it is happening, but I do believe there is an intentional lateral move (though it may be small).

[iacas]

Yes, I do believe there is. I don't necessarily think that it is something one "thinks" about while it is happening, but I do believe there is an intentional lateral move (though it may be small).

Agreed.

And until it becomes automatic, you have to think about it (whether it's your hips or your left knee or whatever).

[TN94z]

And until it becomes automatic, you have to think about it (whether it's your hips or your left knee or whatever).

That is true!

[bunkerputt]

There is. It may not even be a conscious move (certainly the goal is to make it a subconscious thing), but yes, definitely. Proven fact - look at 3D models. Your animated GIF doesn't hold a candle to them.

Which 3D models are you referencing out of curiosity? I readily admit that I haven't done any real science here in this thread. I'm only attempting to come up with something to show that the argument "lateral shift occurred, therefore conscious or unconscious sliding occurred" is faulty.

[chspeed]

Another great thread.

Bunkerputt, I think you and Iacas are NOT talking about the same thing. For a while, I also thought that the rotation of moving your left butt cheek back to the imaginary wall behind you is the equivilant of a bump, since it does move your hips forward slightly.

I think this move, though, has to be preceded with a "weight redistribution" to the front leg. IMO, this weight shift is the bump that Iacas is talking about.

If you do not do this, you will pull the ball because you will be rotating around your back leg. If you are hitting the ball well - without pulling - you may be doing this weight shift subconsciously.

[safetrip]

I thought it would be nice to see shoulders and feet in a somewhat faded form too so that the hip pivot would be highlighted, but couldn't think of any way to do it that wouldn't take a week. I remember seeing a 3d model of Hogan's swing on youtube and thinking how awesome it was for pointing out what's really going on. There weren't any legs, or clothing to distract visually. What would be super cool is if someone could take a birdseye view of a player and overlay a skeleton onto the video. That would be pretty enlightening.

Go to motiongolf dot com. You can download Sergio Garcia's demo swing in a skeleton model that you view in any angles(birds eye too) and slow it down or pause, look at the swing planes, club trajectory etc. It's really cool.

[bunkerputt]

Another great thread.

That may be the case. Regarding my personal game, when I was trying to shift, I ended up shanking everything. When I thought about moving my lower body like the left-butt-cheek-against-the-wall drill, it eliminated my shanks. It may simply be that I am just not sliding as much. I really don't know and am going mostly by feel.

[chspeed]

That may be the case. Regarding my personal game, when I was trying to shift, I ended up shanking everything. When I thought about moving my lower body like the left-butt-cheek-against-the-wall drill, it eliminated my shanks. It may simply be that I am just not sliding as much. I really don't know and am going mostly by feel.

For me, when I shank or don't hit the ball well, I find I'm moving my head ahead of the ball. I've actually found it very difficult to shift my weight and leave my head back. I wish I could figure it out.

[bunkerputt]

Go to motiongolf dot com. You can download Sergio Garcia's demo swing in a skeleton model that you view in any angles(birds eye too) and slow it down or pause, look at the swing planes, club trajectory etc. It's really cool.

That is really cool. Also cool is the fact that a golf academy here in Austin offers the service for $110 an hour. I'd bet it's a pretty eye-opening hour. I didn't realize what a freak Sergio is. I knew he was flexible, but I didn't realize how much exactly. I did find it funny that the amateur was trying to mimic his swing. I've tried that downcocking move at various points and find it extremely difficult to square the clubface, not having the 50+ degree separation between the shoulders and hips that Sergio has at impact. I can swing 117 too, but I'm 6'3" and 225. 117 is definitely not an average speed for me, more like 114 or so. It's a pretty impressive physical feat for Sergio, IMO. That's why he gets paid the big bucks.

[bunkerputt]

It's my brother. I made that as a joke because he sent it to me to show me what a "real golfer" looks like. I'll pass along the advice, though.

I'm thinking about the other comments. I'm still not convinced without seeing data, though everyone seems to have strong opinions one way or the other. You mentioned that every measurable point moves forward. This does seem to indicate some shift. Where can I go to see this?

[iacas]

Which 3D models are you referencing out of curiosity?

The ones done by top instructors. The ones done by a bunch of the equipment companies. The ones done by groups like EA Sports in order to render characters properly.

I've been to several of the TaylorMade, Titleist, etc. labs and seen the 3D models from a bunch of instructors.

I'm only attempting to come up with something to show that the argument "lateral shift occurred, therefore conscious or unconscious sliding occurred" is faulty.

OK, but you're assuming it's faulty. It's not faulty.

[mc0388]

The hips rotate clockwise 45 degrees or so away from the target on the backswing around an imaginary point roughly in the center of the hips

Instead of turning your hips 45*, you should try to keep your hips on the target line while making your shoulder turn. This creates lag and a ton of control over your legs to make a consistent swing. Instead of your rt butt cheek focus the pressure on the inside rightt thigh during your take away.

[Brakkus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8285216.stm

Hopefully this link works for you overseas people.

I think you can get too technical on here,no disrespect to anyones swing knowledge.I look at this guy and say less talk more swing.That's the proof of the pudding.We can debate hip turn,hip slide until the cows come home.

The real is what does your ball do,now I'm all for refining my swing but put less emphasis on nuances or little tips here and there.Find a swing that works,and practice it.