Experiences of a Stack&Tilt apprentice

[Hollister]

Hey guys, I need a little support from more advanced Stack&Tilters; to have me progress a little better on the learning curve. I have the S&T; book, no S&T; teacher around or a training buddy - thats why I need your help.

So, here we are practicing with a 7/8/9 iron off a mat:

1st session: 50 balls focussing on weight (front leg) and steep shoulder turn. Results were not notable.

2nd session: 50 balls with hands in, straightening the back leg (back swing...). Results were again not notable.

3rd session: 125 balls holding the flying wedge and maintain straight arms on follow-thru. Now we were getting somewhere. The 7i/9i were 10 to 15 yard longer (carry). Plus the consistency of all shots was improving really, hitting about 10 pushes and 20 hooks. Hitting the balls between the middle club face and the heel was not good, but OK for the time being. I was really pleased.

4th session: 125 balls focussing on lateral hip movement and getting the butt tucked under. Result: what a mess. Shanks! Hell! Hit nearly every ball with the heel or hosel of the club. Best thing, I took a video of it - the first time recording my swing ever. When I got home I was somewhat done with golf for at least a few days. OK, had a look at the video. Bingo: saw that my front leg straightened on the downswing having me standing upright - no lateral hip movement at all! Plus, the back swing was completely below the shaft line - the result of moving the hands in too much. Coming down I miraculously got back on the shaft line and hit the ball (almost) square...
So, I pulled out the practice net and began to hit half swings focussing on lateral hip movement and take-away until the impact 'felt' right. No more shanks and I was happy again. Not having to think about distance was another positive learning.

5th session: 100 balls focussing on lateral hip movement and take-away. Messing things up, again. I took a video, it started raining, I left. Shanks (pushes) and slices taking up about 40% of all hits. Was fed up and went home. Video showed a out-to-in pattern rotating the hip too fast. Head still unsteady. No distance thanks to filipping.

6th session: 100 balls still trying to get things right. Tried stopping to worry about the hip slide, swinging back above the shaft plane and tried keep my spine in the right inclination - resulting in slight pushes when it went well. The rest were shanks and slices. At last I thought about the 3rd session and remembered the keep my upper arms connected to my torso (PP4+5) and swinging slower. And yes, the last balls were much, much better. Went home, was partly pleased, but still annoyed having strayed so many balls not focussing on the text-book fundamentals and not being able to duplicate the 3rd training session.


After 500-odd balls I find myself asking, whether anybody has been thru similar experiences, learned from them. I hate to waste another week or session having to do the math at home... Eric mentioned something about "reaffirming the fundamentals" on a regular basis. That might be a definite way to go for every session.

So, did someone figure out a practice routine to get going the right way every time?
Are there helpful practice routines going beyond the S&T; book?
Anything you can recommend me to learn S&T; better/faster?

[jmomcc]

I did my first session today. For me there were 4 points I kept in mind all the time. Weight on front leg and keep it there, let the right leg straigten, tilt into the swing(not the best way to describe it but how it feels to me) and really push the hips on the way back. I tried to really feel these sensations.

I didn't really concentrate on my head (if my body isn't moving back, my head shouldn't be) and hands. My misses were hooks and balls hit fat. The reasons for these misses are explained in the book. I am delving more into the book tonight and going back tomorrow.

I found it to be automatic in a sense. When I really push my hips through my ass pushes up anyway. I think you are maybe thinking about too many things at once. I would post a video. I'm just a beginner with this swing like you but I think some other guys could give u good advice with tape.

[Zeph]

Have you been using video tape or someone watching you while practicing? If not, how do you know what you are doing is correct?

[Hollister]

Have you been using video tape or someone watching you while practicing? If not, how do you know what you are doing is correct?

Beginning with 4th session I started using my digi-cam. I reviewed bad and good swings on the range and added a few lines at home to see things moving (or not).

Anyways - have an idea for a structured approach to get better easier?

[Zeph]

Lessons or online instruction. I would suggest Evolvr, but it hasn't been launched just yet. Has helped my game exponentially, based on S&T; theories.

[Hollister]

Lessons or online instruction. I would suggest Evolvr, but it hasn't been launched just yet. Has helped my game exponentially, based on S&T; theories.

Well, I know - been in brief contact with Dave. Just thought that getting into a bit of the fundamentals gives a better base to work on "something" - opposed to have a ever changing swing.

[iacas]

Well, I know - been in brief contact with Dave. Just thought that getting into a bit of the fundamentals gives a better base to work on "something" - opposed to have a ever changing swing.

evolvr is available now, btw. We're not promoting it heavily because we don't want 100 people to sign up (we'd never get to leave the house), but it's available.

Also, the problems seem to come for you when you really focus on the weight shift and pushing the hips forward. I'd suggest you revert back to working on the fundamentals for you UP TO that point, and stop just short. Really lock those in - 50 balls or 100 balls won't do it. Lock those in, and then tackle the hips pushing forward later. The trick to the hips is that it rarely works to think about the hips. For some people it's the right knee. For others it's the right foot, the left knee, the left foot, the tailbone, the left side of your chest... it varies. They all accomplish the same thing, but the feelings can be very different for different people.

[Hollister]

Erik, I already signed up this morning.

Did start at the beginning this morning, all went fine. Even found a soft ball at the range to squeeze between my arms. Plus doing half-swings and finally just swinging at 70% did the trick. Contact got better, but is still between the heel and the middle of the club face. Ball flight is a slight, constant fade now. Thats something I (and the evolvr-team) can start working with. Erik, thanks for you reply!

Took vids, will upload tonight. Ahh, progress, ...

[Hollister]

OK - here we are again:

8th to 10th session: Still messy, no change. I feel stupid. More than 1.000 balls hit and no progress. It even gets worse. Am beginning with the fundamentals every time, but the half-swing is already tainted with slices/shanks. The full shot is far to short and right.

Went to a demo day today - PING. Saw the G15, got one and balls. On the way to the mat I bumped into the Pro. Nice guy, ask how my game was going. Said I am working on my hip slide, did not get it right, hitting the hosel and was slicing. Then I hit a ball thinking "slide the hips". Beautiful 50 yard slice. OK, took another ball - thought "stand still, hacker". A straight shot. Oh, nice - seldom these days.

The Pro offered free advice then. I thought well, hell, shut up and listen. He went thru all "classic" positions with my after see me doing Stack and Tilt. I found it interesting being aware of all of these and being able to tell him what I was actually trying to do. But he did not get it, anyways. After that 10 minute excursion my swing was doomed. One, ONE, decent shot. The rest were 49 slices and hosel hits. I packed up and went home.

The PING club was butt-ugly compared to my forged Ben Hogan Apex Edge anyways. Pro went: "ah, know them, really nice clubs".

Had a long thought on my way home. Arrived, putt out the net, gripped a club and just moved my body on the backswing. Then I added raising the arms when my torso was in position. Well, you guess the rest. CONNECTION. Yep, that was it. I hit 50 balls. NO bad hit, no hosel contact. I could go as fast as I wanted. Turn my hips even fast. Bingo. Got it.

Began to understand my wrongdoing looking at my videos again: Arms were disconnecting already at the start of my backswing. At P1 the club head was well inside and continuing on that path. Deep hand, flat swing done wrong.

Tomorrow I will try my "new" S&T; swing at the range, avoiding the Pro! Hopefully I can repeat the 4th session - it worked once then.

Please keep you thumbs pressed, will report tomorrow.

[Zeph]

You can slide the hips all you want, if you don't have the proper arm path, you will still slice it all over the place.

This is why getting help is useful, instructors know what to look for and where to start, aiming to fix one part of the swing at the time.

You have listed a whole bunch of flaws and fixes so far. Has any of them been paid enough attention to stay consistent? Here is where using a video camera becomes very useful. If you have worked on two things and started on the third, only to find that the first problem is back, you have to give that attention again. Trying to fix too much at the time is making things too hard.

You say you raised the arms, something S&T; does not perscribe. Chances are good that your take away is wrong and you just stumbled upon something that worked, without knowing if it's right.

[Hollister]

This is why getting help is useful, instructors know what to look for and where to start, aiming to fix one part of the swing at the time.

I know - am waiting for Dave to return from Hilton Head and have my video analyzed.

I have a video from 5th session and on. I am no expert, I am looking for help. But hey, better die trying to improve... Been working on keeping my arm on the swing plane (backswing). Think I must have lost my connection there. I stopped worrying about a hip slide and focus on staying in the right inclination (keep my head level and still). Thats all I have been tinkering with (consciously) lately. Really. And I need more fps on my digicam. The downswing is just a blur in the evening lightning. And I need to permanently record my practice session. It seems when I am recording, I do swing much better than when trying to improve things.

You say you raised the arms, something S&T; does not prescribe.

Right. S&T; bible, p. 55. Doing a take-away in one piece not moving the hands back and upish would end in something like picture 2. By raising I meant reaching the position of the left arm like in No. 3 - I am by no means raising the arms just up (like p. 108, but going further up on the backswing - I know, this pict shows halfway down).

Anyways, Zeph, I do appreciate you nagging me to get help by the Pros. You are right. I am looking forward to get the evolvr-thing working for me, too.

[seattlemudder]

The biggest key for me has been where my sternum ends up - if in line with the ball or just forward, I almost always get a solid strike. The second key for me is to clear my hips on the back swing so that I can get more shoulder rotation. All in all S&T; is very good.

[iacas]

I know - am waiting for Dave to return from Hilton Head and have my video analyzed.

I'm currently "the other guy" at Golf Evolution and behind evolvr. Soon we'll be adding a third guy to Golf Evolution for the summer, and he'll be on evolvr, but he's not one of the owners (of evolvr - Dave owns Golf Evolution).

Dave will probably address the hand path and clubhead path first, but here are a few things you can see in your videos. I'm pointing them out to you so you can see the types of things you'll work on, but trust us - you're going to want to work on the one specific thing we tell you via evolvr and only that thing. If we're not mentioning something on evolvr, it's not important now. Eventually, though, we'll clean up these problem areas: A - Clubhead in, but hands not in deep enough, clubhead and hands both off the plane. B - Probably not the impact position you want. C - Lower and upper centers move forward on the backswing - note the head and right hip positions. B is not something you worry about because other things will fix that. A and C we'll get to with you on evolvr, in an order that should work best. But again, I cannot stress this enough - work on what we have you work on and nothing else... you can't make changes if you're trying to do 12 things at once.

[Hollister]

...work on what we have you work on and nothing else....

Yes, coach, I promise to obey your instructions! :D

Glad that I was not to far off with my judgement - just couldn't get it right. Thanks for your quick 'n dirty analysis, Erik! Am looking forward to the one on evolvr.