Your opinon on an incident yesterday

**Anand** · September 1, 2008

Greetings

Would appreciate your thoughts on something that happened yesterday.

We had our club championship qualifying yesterday - one round from the tips - 12 lowest gross scores go through to the 36 hole Championship in 2 weeks.

On 14 we were given a warning by a marshall that we were 2 holes behind and would be on the clock shortly.

We reached 16, a par 5, and one of our fourball (Gavin) pushed his drive and took 2 provisionals off the tee. All 4 of us trundled around in the rough looking for his first ball and eventually came up with it. I moved up the fairway to play my second and third shots from the left rough. Gavin had again lost his ball further up the hole in some thick rough. I was stood 200 yards away, on the other side of the fairway, across the green. The other 2 guys were helping Gavin look for his ball. I decided to play my 4th shot, a pitch onto the green and then walked back 150 yards to help in the search. As I approached the other 3, Gavin declared the ball lost and therefore was DQ'd.

When we finished up and shook hands on 18, Gavin looked at me and said, 'your etiquette stinks, quite frankly. you should have helped me look for my ball on 16.' It was a medal competition, meaning every hole had to be completed, or else it's a DQ. So he was pissed that he was DQ'd .. and took it out on me. Earlier in the round, I had helped him locate his ball on three occassions, which was conveniently forgotten, it seems.

Anyway, was wondering what you all thought? Was I in the wrong? Should I have joined the other 3 guys to look for the lost ball? We all helped one another look for balls in the long rough from time to time, but it wasn't the case that *every time* all 4 of us were looking.

//Anand

**alf174** · September 1, 2008

Don't worry about it. My take is that Gavin is a poor sportsmen, preferring to blame others for his less-than-stellar performance.

**golfchief** · September 1, 2008

Don't worry about it. My take is that Gavin is a poor sportsmen, preferring to blame others for his less-than-stellar performance.

I agree. Its not your responsibility to find or help find his ball. It was nice of you to help the other times he could not find his ball.

***iacas*** · September 1, 2008

I agree. Its not your responsibility to find or help find his ball. It was nice of you to help the other times he could not find his ball.

I disagree. Though it's not your responsibility, it falls under etiquette, and I would suggest it falls precisely under this:

Source: USGA Rule Book Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.

And since this mentions other "players" helping to look for a ball, I think that's backed up:

Source: USGA Rules Players searching for a ball should signal the players in the group behind them to play through as soon as it becomes apparent that the ball will not easily be found. They should not search for five minutes before doing so. Having allowed the group behind to play through, they should not continue play until that group has passed and is out of range.

Furthermore, at the very least, you played out of turn. In medal play, it's not a big deal, but it's still a breach of etiquette at the very least. And why were you guys two holes out of position? Part of the blame lies with you, even if you're not "the slow one."

**blackxpress** · September 1, 2008

I'm a little confused about why he was DQ'd. Could he not have hit another provisional ball and took the penalty stroke? Since you guys were already behind the pace, I think you did the right thing by playing your ball and trying to avoid further delay. As for Gavin's lost ball, he should have hit a provisional and then you guys should have signaled the group behind you to play through while he searched for his lost ball. You yourself are under no obligation to help him look so I think you were well within the rules of etiquette to play your ball first. You went the extra mile by walking back 150 yds after making your shot. He should've been grateful.

**cougar2588** · September 1, 2008

i think its just a matter of the guy being a poor sport and being upset about shooting a poor round on day that he needed to shoot a decent one. i would have done the same exact thing you did. first off its a competition, your there to advance to the next round, not to babysit another guys golf ball every time he wacks a shot into the rough. you did more than enough, as did the rest of the guys in your group, by helping him to look for his other shots throughout the day.

i understand that it is proper etiquette to help other people look for their balls, but when the guy is consistently hitting balls into the thick rough and hazards and your constantly waisting time helping him look for his ball, a line has to be drawn somewhere. you can not spend your whole round walking around with him looking for all of his lost shots. where is the line drawn?

and maybe he way two holes behind because the group in front of him was playing faster and was two holes ahead....iacas, i dont understand how it is HIS fault that a member in his group is slowing the whole group down...

***iacas*** · September 1, 2008

I'm a little confused about why he was DQ'd. Could he not have hit another provisional ball and took the penalty stroke?

Yes, he could have.

Since you guys were already behind the pace, I think you did the right thing by playing your ball and trying to avoid further delay.

Disagree - most "pace of play" rules say that a player will be penalized when they do not play their shot within some time frame (40 seconds or so) of it being their turn to play.

If the guy whose ball is lost is away, and he hasn't found his ball, it's nobody's turn to play yet.

As for Gavin's lost ball, he should have hit a provisional and then you guys should have signaled the group behind you to play through while he searched for his lost ball.

Yes, that would have been appropriate.

You yourself are under no obligation to help him look so I think you were well within the rules of etiquette to play your ball first. You went the extra mile by walking back 150 yds after making your shot. He should've been grateful.

Disagree. The rules of etiquette pretty much say that you help them look for their ball. Do unto others...

Pros do it for each other, and they're playing for a bit more prize than a local little qualifier. Sorry, and I hope for the sake of humanity that I'm not in the minority here, but I think you had not only a good reason to but an obligation to help him look for his ball. Just about the only thing that excuses you from looking for his ball is if you're looking for your own as well.

first off its a competition, your there to advance to the next round, not to babysit another guys golf ball every time he wacks a shot into the rough.

By that logic, in match play you should never help look for a player's ball, since "your there" to beat him.

FAIL.

i understand that it is proper etiquette to help other people look for their balls, but when the guy is consistently hitting balls into the thick rough and hazards and your constantly waisting time helping him look for his ball, a line has to be drawn somewhere.

Why must a line be drawn? Why do you reach a point at which etiquette - the very "spirit of the game" - ceases to matter?

iacas, i dont understand how it is HIS fault that a member in his group is slowing the whole group down...

Slow play is a matter for the entire group. The OP never (seems to have) waived waiting groups through as suggested by the Rules of Golf. Everyone's responsible for being two holes behind. When put on the clock and depending on the local rules re: slow play (whether the entire group is penalized or just individual players), things change up a bit. So the OP was just as responsible as everyone else in the group for either waiving others through or trying to keep his group on-pace.

Sorry, I'm going to disagree with anyone who thinks that what the OP did was proper. I understand getting frustrated. I've played with 24-handicappers who can't see very well. I played with a guy who lost a few balls on virtually every hole yesterday. I helped him look for his ball every time it was remotely possible (i.e. I wasn't looking for my own ball). So did George (of this site). It's the Right Thing To Do™.

**michaeljames92** · September 1, 2008

In hindsight, to avoid all of this mess, you probably should have asked to play your shot to quicken up play, and if he had a problem with it, then he's a bit of a bad sport.

CPGA_LeftyNation · September 1, 2008

To be two holes behind is a little much. The issue lies within the group, not an individual. However; to hit a shot to speed up play once the ball is found, or another one is put into play is acceptable as long as you check with your group members. Don't finish the hole without another group memeber there to witness, but to hit a shot shouldn't be an issue.

After all, you're trying to speed things up so everyone avoids a penalty, including Gavin.

**chingali** · September 1, 2008

It doesn't matter whether it's the first time you have to spend time looking for a ball or it's the third time or it's the hundredth, you go and help your group find it. It's basic etiquette and there is also a bit of the kharma thing involved. You never know when you are going to need your ball found, if you help everyone else sooner or later it'll work in your favour.

As for losing two holes that is completely unacceptable. It's up to the group to keep up and help out if someone is struggling.

And as for Gavin spitting the dummy and having a whinge, whilst he may have had a point he should have kept the comments to himself and said nothing. Complaining about things when you are having a difficult time is a show of bad sportsmanship/sour grapes. Even if you are thinking something about a player in your group keep it to yourself otherwise you will always come off sounding like a tosser.

***iacas*** · September 1, 2008

And as for Gavin spitting the dummy and having a whinge, whilst he may have had a point he should have kept the comments to himself and said nothing. Complaining about things when you are having a difficult time is a show of bad sportsmanship/sour grapes. Even if you are thinking something about a player in your group keep it to yourself otherwise you will always come off sounding like a tosser.

I haven't said so yet, but I also agree with this.

**NM Golf** · September 1, 2008

You should have helped him look for his ball, you were wrong for not doing so. You also need to take some responsibility for being 2 holes behind. That being said how he dealt with it may not have been up to par either. Hopefully you learned a lesson in etiquette and will do the right thing from now on.

I had the same thing happen to me in the first tournament of the year this year. I hit a ball in the gunch and two of the three other players in the group helped me hunt whilst the fourth just went on and played the hole. I did not say anything to him, but one of the other guys in the foursome simply told him that we help each other search for balls in this association. He was fine with that and we got along just fine afterwards.

**Dub** · September 1, 2008

Interesting dilema.

I can see where Gavin feels slighted.... to a point , however, I tend to side with you.

Getting two holes behind is a considerable lag. I wonder what Gavin's reaction was to this bit of news on number 14? Surely he had to understand the impact his errant shots had on slowing things down.

I don't understand his confronting of you afterwards. It seems to me that the real question on his mind should have been, "Why did I play in this thing?"...."I certainly didn't have the game to compete today...I need to practice and work on things".

**Stillhacken** · September 1, 2008

Greetings

I dont think you were wrong. Its not your job to look for that guys ball all day. Yeah , a couple times but if he keeps spraying off the tee maybe he should have made a different club selection instead of expecting everybody to look for his ball every time. Thats poor etiquette on his part. He hit three freakin balls off the tee anyway if I read that correctly. That guys a crybaby and I wouldnt sweat it. I still dont know why he was DQ'd. Thats his own fault for not finishing the hole.

**cougar2588** · September 1, 2008

once again, i dont understand how so many people think its your job to help this guy find every single one of his lost golf balls. you have your own game to play/focus on. yes i understand that it is proper "etiquette" to help the other members in your group look for their shots, but honestly, you cant ignore your own game in order to constantly help pick up another guys slack all day....and when he is obviously slowing your group down by dragging you guys down to two holes behind, A LINE NEEDS TO BE DRAWN. isn't there supposed to be a time limit on time spent looking for a ball before it is declared lost anyways?

im sorry if im sounding like a jerk or someone who doesnt play with any etiquette because im really not. i actually just got back from playing a round of 18 with my dad and two complete strangers that we got paired up with. i helped them find their shots, they helped me find mine, they helped me read greens, i helped them read greens and so on. yes i do play with etiquette, yes i am respectable to people when they are shooting/putting. and because this is my frist year golfing, im normally always the slowest player in my group, and when i know i am slowing the group down by driving in circle after circle looking for a golf ball, i simply stop the cart, and drop a ball and take a penalty stroke. i dont expect them to walk/drive over to me every single time i can't find a ball that "I" lost. and nobody should expect that. to me, thats being selfish.

***iacas*** · September 1, 2008

once again, i dont understand how so many people think its your job to help this guy find every single one of his lost golf balls.

Because it is. Do unto others as you'd have done to you. You can look for his ball, then take a few seconds to get back into "your" game. Looking for a ball shouldn't be a factor or in any way "throw you off your game."

isn't there supposed to be a time limit on time spent looking for a ball before it is declared lost anyways?

Nothing he said came off as "we looked for his ball for longer than the five minutes allowed by the rules." At least, not to me, anyway.

Again, yes, I don't think Gavin should have gotten upset or said anything about it, but I believe quite strongly that you should help people find balls. You don't have to walk over in the first 15-30 seconds or so, but if you saw where it landed and have a good idea, or if it's taking longer than 15-30 seconds, you should lend a hand. My opinion, and having stated it, no need to keep re-stating it, I guess. I'm out.

**Doctorfro** · September 1, 2008

I'm not sure anyone of us can judge exactly what would have been proper considering we are only getting a portion of exactly what happened. Was the OP sure of where his ball was? Did he think he might need to hunt for it and considering they were behind was trying to hustle up ahead and in the meantime this Gavin dude hit another stray? Should he have turned around and headed back to help even though he was already at his ball and doing so would mean he would have to take even more time to return to his ball to hit it? I completely understand rules and etiquette and think they should be adhered to but frankly I think that sometimes we have to remember the spirit of the rule and also remember common sense. Everyone seems to want to blame the entire group for being two holes behind but c'mon, you all know all it takes is one guy having a REALLY bad day to slow the group to a grind. None of us was there and we can't judge the pace of play. The fact is a two stroke penalty was at stake for everyone. If the OP had simply just hit his ball and gone back to help find the ball and apologized for getting ahead, that should have been the end of it and it shouldn't have been an issue. Gavin was not a gentlemen for copping a "tude".

**Harry Longshanks** · September 1, 2008

spitting the dummy and having a whinge

I've misplaced my Aussie to Yank dictionary - Chingali, can I get a little help here?

(from the context, I know it generally means "get angry", but I was hoping for something a little more detailed.) Thanks.

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