Mud Balls..

I figure if alot of the events on the PGA tour alow that rule then I should'nt have to feel guilty about plugged lies and mud balls. A couple of the course's I play are near river beds, so its like playing on clay.. meaning its rock hard with a week of warm sunshine and mushy when its raining. Most of my drives carry 240 in cold/rainy weather and plug.. thats how bad it is.

Do you play it where it lies or are you the type to lift, clean and place?

I live in the Kansas City area. When I first moved here about 25 years ago, almost all courses had "cold weather tolerant" grass fairways. We get really wet springs and very hot, dry summers so I saw a lot of soggy muddy conditions in the spring at a lot of courses.

Then maybe 10-15 years ago many of the courses around here started re-sodding their fairways with zoysia. Back in the day, maybe two of the courses I played had zoysia fairways. Now about 8 of the 12 or so courses I play have zoysia fairways. Two more courses I play have announced they are re-sodding their fairways this summer/fall with zoysia. The stuff is like a thick mat, so no more plugged or really muddy balls in the spring unless you hit into a very very low lying area.

Even thought the zoysia goes dormant in the winter and turns yellow, it does have the advantage of being playable all year and doesn't get too torn up or muddy when it's wet. Another benefit is that unless you land in an old divot, you almost always get a very good lie in the fairway. I'm not sure of the exact reason all the courses around here are switching to zoysia but I expect it's because it stays more playable and requires less water in the hottest summer months.

I need to ask one of the greenskeepers next time I see one.

Oh yeah, if it's really muddy here almost everyone I know plays lift, clean and place. Usually only in the spring time.

Play it where it lies.

Lift, clean, and cheat is exactly that....cheating. The exception is an embedded ball in the fairway , casual water, and if the tournament committee deems it neccessary.

I would hardly say "a lot" of tournaments on tour allow this. I would actually go as far to say the tour tries very hard to not have to lift, clean, and cheat in their tournaments. In fact, if someone shoots a course record during LC&C; they get an asterisk next to it because it is not a true course record. Mud on your ball is just a tough break. Whats next, do you also give yourself relief from divots?

Allthough initially more expensive, you are right it is less expensive to maintain. It does not need to be reseeded, it is a creeping grass via underground runners. Usually it is started using plugs, although there is at least one new variety that can be seeded. It requires less water and is more resistant to disease and fungus. It does need frequent areation and can have thatch problems. It is easier for pickers to play on than guys who take a bigger divot, great for fairway woods.

I play it as it lies, unless it's plugged in the fairway, which I've had a few times earlier this year. The ball would barely go 200 yards and plug right there, smack, like a fried-egg. I'd pick it out, but usually not clean it unless the amount of dirt was clearly going to mess with the ball's flight. (I'm not a fan of bending over--I use my putter to dig into the hole and scoop my ball up when I hole out).

A bad break? As I stated, in the winter, early spring and fall. Balls hit and plug 60% of the time. Come play on my home course after a week of rain and your perception of lift, clean and place will change. We're talking mud on 70% of the ball, and or embedded in mud. Its clay, so there is no drainage. If im playing on a course that has proper fairways and drainage there is usually no need to lift, clean and place.

I dont see 1 spec of mud on my course, so i dont have that problem. But if i did, i would clean and replace.

i dont think its cheating considering clubswingers situations. If hes in mud half the time, there is noway you can have a good score let alone have fun there. Your ball would be so heavy with mud youd hit it 5 yards left or right each time.

my course doesnt really have a mud problem, but around the green especially it has a lack of grass problem. So if i'm going to chip and i'm in between clumps of grass or in a hole i'll roll it over to i can actually hit a shot rather than hope to blade it close. If i was actually playing a serious round i wouldnt, but most the time i dont even keep score, i'm just looking to improve.

(I'm not a fan of bending over--I use my putter to dig into the hole and scoop my ball up when I hole out).

Doing that can and does tear up the edges of the cup for the players behind you. If you can't or won't bend down to get your ball out of the cup get a rubber cup to put on the end of your putter so the players behind you have a nice clean hole to putt into.

This is small potatos but I love how people think that "in their situation" changing the rules is okay. Clubswinger can do whatever he wants. I am not playing against him. We don't have any bets going. If he wants to lift and clean his ball after every shot, kick his drives back in the fairway, or take 5 mulligans than that is his right. But cleaning the ball is NOT within USGA rules.

Definition: cheating(a): violating accepted standards or rules So by definition, not following the rules is cheating. So cleaning your ball when its not on the green, embedded, or in casual water is cheating. Its black and white. Rules are like that. Now the USGA has the following rule set up for tournament play where conditions are less than perfect. If your local tournament committee deems it neccessary for tournament and handicap purposes they can use the local winter rules provision: 4. Temporary Conditions — Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of Course a. Lifting an Embedded Ball, Cleaning Temporary conditions that might interfere with proper playing of the game, including mud and extreme wetness, warranting relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the green or permitting lifting, cleaning and replacing a ball anywhere through the green or on a closely mown area through the green. b. “Preferred Lies” and “Winter Rules” Adverse conditions, including the poor condition of the course or the existence of mud, are sometimes so general, particularly during winter months, that the Committee may decide to grant relief by temporary Local Rule either to protect the courseor to promote fair and pleasant play. The Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as the conditions warrant.

Well if it embeds in the fairway you are within the rules to clean it.

Nah, don't worry, I'm good enough that I don't tear anything up.

I find it funny how you're putting words in my mouth. I made a thread about lift clean and place so now im a cheater? Im supposed to feel bad because it rains 75% of the year in Canada, and every ball is a mud ball in the winter.. if the tour played on the course in discussion after a week of rain. All the players would probably walk off the course in disgust. I hate golfing there after any steady rainfall.. and I've seen them play lift clean and place on tour in conditions not even half as bad as what I play in the winter and fall. Remember the ground is clay on this course. When clay gets wet its like hitting off of a cow pie. When its dried out its rock hard. Conditions you've obviously never had the pleasure of experiencing. Maybe you should keep your stupid thoughts to yourself instead commenting on sh*t you know nothing about.

I did not put any words in your mouth. Umm, Why don't you go back and look who I quoted jerkoff, it wasn't even you. And if you lift clean and place without a committee ruling it is technically cheating. Get off your high horse, oh poor me playing in these horrible conditions. Don't friggin play then! You lift clean and place. You said that. It's not in the rules to do so except in the exceptions I stated. Soooo you are breaking the rules, so you are technically a cheater.

So what is this I know nothing about? The rules? No, I know the rules obviously a lot better than you. Mud on my ball? No, I have had gobs of it on my ball before. Whining like a schoolgirl about the conditions I have to play in? Well you have me beat there. That is something you know much more about than me. I comes down to this. You started a thread to ask about preferred lies and if anyone else does it. You are transparently trying to justify "not feeling guilty" about breaking the rules. You said it yourself:

If you feel guilty then you apparently realized you are violating a rule. So I disagreed with you and told you what you didn't want to hear and you get an attitude. So from now on don't ask the question if you don't want the correct answer.

I can't see the point of lift, cleaning and cheating unless the ball is plugging in the fairway. However, most of the time that that happens, the course should probably be closed anyway. I never bother lift, cleaning and cheating, even if I have the option. The game is to play the ball as it lies. Anyone can hit a decent shot off a perfect lie in the fairway; where's the challenge in that? It's far more rewarding to play a shot if the balls nestled down a bit, you change your stance accordingly and pull the shot off . But that's just me.

I shouldnt even have to respond to that crap. You beat around the bush. My name came out of your mouth, You said if Clubswinger wants to play lift, clean, and place, kick his balls in the fairways and take 5 mulligans a round thats on him. Thats putting words in my mouth. I said on this one course, balls do plug on impact and are covered in mud or in mud puddles if they dont plug because its clay. I play lift, clean in place Under those conditions, you stated yourself Its not cheating. You're a walking contradiction buddy, get your facts straight.

Get off my high horse? Your the one who thinks he's some kind of savior to the game of golf. More like an internet bully, honestly dude.. you're a prick. Plain and simple. You're tight ass, on the rules like you're a pro. If I play under those conditions with a group, we all agree lift, clean and place is fine. No ones going to have fun, hitting out of mud puddles, plugged lies, and the color of the ball is supposed to be white, not brown. I dont need a f---ing rules commision to tell me thats OK. If im playing in a tourney there and those rules arent in place of course im not going to play LCP. Im not whining, im writing a response to your dumb accusations.

thats what I said.

We have some muddy days here in the spring and unless our league actually states "Lift, clean, and place" that day, then we play it. If it's plugged in the fairway, then lift clean and place. Otherwise we play it. I've had some plugged lies in the first cut kill my score though! Our 5th hole is 195 yard SEVERE downill par 3. It can be hit with a wedge (that far down hill). If you miss in front of the green there is rough there, and the ball will absolutely plug into the ground!! Since it's considered rough, there is no drop. That's a good way to go from a par or bogey to triple after you hack it out of the mud!! But that's the ruling on my home course.