How far can the ball roll on taking relief

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanS 

I came across this writing and wanted to ask if the same was true when taking relief from a lateral hazard.

 

14. Ball on a Cart Path
You are entitled to free relief.
Step 1 – Determine the “nearest point of relief”. This is the point where the ball would lay affording the player both swing and stance from the cart path.
Step 2 – you are entitled to 1 club length relief from the point where the ball would lie once full relief is taken.
Step 3 – After dropping, the ball may roll up to 2 club lengths no closer to the hole.

16. How to Drop the Ball
After determining the nearest point of relief, you may stand outside the drop area, no closer to the hole, and extend your hand to the side dropping the ball from shoulder height. The ball may roll up to 2 club lengths no closer to the hole. If the ball rolls farther than that you must re-drop. If after dropping 2 times the ball continues to roll past 2 club lengths, you must place the ball where it first touched the ground.

If I understand this correctly then the ball would be considered in play at upwards of 4 club lengths from the nearest point of relief.

You get 1 club length of relief.  Then your ball can roll up to 2 club lengths - no closer to the hole.  

1 club + 2 club roll = 3 club max

So the nearest point of relief would be up to 3 club lengths - if you dropped and your ball rolled out the maximum distance as defined within the rule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beachcomber 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanS 

I came across this writing and wanted to ask if the same was true when taking relief from a lateral hazard.

 

14. Ball on a Cart Path
You are entitled to free relief.
Step 1 – Determine the “nearest point of relief”. This is the point where the ball would lay affording the player both swing and stance from the cart path.
Step 2 – you are entitled to 1 club length relief from the point where the ball would lie once full relief is taken.
Step 3 – After dropping, the ball may roll up to 2 club lengths no closer to the hole.

16. How to Drop the Ball
After determining the nearest point of relief, you may stand outside the drop area, no closer to the hole, and extend your hand to the side dropping the ball from shoulder height. The ball may roll up to 2 club lengths no closer to the hole. If the ball rolls farther than that you must re-drop. If after dropping 2 times the ball continues to roll past 2 club lengths, you must place the ball where it first touched the ground.

If I understand this correctly then the ball would be considered in play at upwards of 4 club lengths from the nearest point of relief.

You get 1 club length of relief.  Then your ball can roll up to 2 club lengths - no closer to the hole.  

 

1 club + 2 club roll = 3 club max

 

So the nearest point of relief would be up to 3 club lengths - if you dropped and your ball rolled out the maximum distance as defined within the rule.

 

Your terminology isn't entirely accurate there.  The NPR is based on the boundaries of the obstruction and your stance. That NPR never changes. The spot you eventually play from may be up to 3 club lengths from the NPR - but the spot you eventually play from is not the NPR, which is what you seem to be saying above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanS 

That doesn't add up for me. You're saying the total amount of relief for a lateral water hazard is no different than the relief allowed for a cart path.
 
When the hazard is at my back I'm entitled to two club lengths of relief which begins at the clubhead. I see that area as being my drop zone. I am then entitled to two club lengths of roll. So I get four.
 
However if I were facing the hazard then I would have to keep the ball within the two club lengths. I don’t believe the ball is allowed to roll out behind me and I don't have to accept the ball in the hazard for which I'm being penalized.

Hope that helps.

I think the disconnect is because we're talking about two different things in this thread. Relief from a hazard is two club lengths from the point at which the ball crossed into the hazard. There is no concept of NPR with respect to a hazard.

Relief from a cart path or other obstruction is one club length from the NPR (and the NPR is not necessarily the boundary of the obstruction).

And you don't take your stance into consideration at all when taking a drop from a hazard.

So to answer your original question, no, taking relief from a cart path is not the same as taking relief from an obstruction. Two completely different situations and different set of rules.

Boy lots of stuff going on here.  First the official definition of the "Nearest Point of Relief".

Nearest Point of Relief

The “nearest point of relief” is the reference point for taking relief without penalty from interference by an immovable obstruction (Rule 24-2), an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1) or a wrong putting green (Rule 25-3).

It is the point on the course nearest to where the ball lies:

(i) that is not nearer the hole, and

(ii) where, if the ball were so positioned, no interference by the condition from which relief is sought would exist for the stroke the player would have made from the original position if the condition were not there.

Note: In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such a stroke.

The NPR is usually within a foot or two of the interference, depends on where the interference is in relationship to the direction you are trying to play your stroke.  Most often when you drop within 1 club length from the NPR and as stated the ball can role up to 2 club lengths where it first hit the course..........so your looking at a max of around 3 club lengths from the interference, although it could be a little more.

There are instances where you can drop farther than one club length from the NPR, however it's with a one stroke penalty.   Two examples are taking relief from an immovable obstruction or abnormal ground condition in a bunker and you have to drop outside the bunker.  You keep the NPR between you and the pin, and you may drop on an extension of that line as far back as you want.  (Similar to a water hazard)

Lateral hazards to not use a NPR.  With a lateral, one option is to drop  within two club lengths from the margin of the hazard.  No NPR is involved.  As mentioned when dropping from a hazard, only the ball must remain outside the hazard for relief, doesn't matter about your feet.  A side not on this is when hazards are marked for tournaments, the committee must take in consideration both left and right handed golfers.  They don't want a situation where a player would drop from a hazard and still have to stand in the water.

As far as where you have to stand when dropping, doesn't matter.  You can stand anywhere and face in any direction.  It just has to hit the course in the proper place and not roll into a position that would require a re drop.  There are actually seven things that require a re drop and are listed in rule 20-2c .

I should also mention that when taking relief from an immovable obstruction or abnormal ground condition on the green, you place the ball, not drop, within one club length from the NPR.

Regards,
John 

Just saw the other reply on dropping from a lateral.  Yes there is still a max roll out.  Regardless if its dropping from within one club length from a NPR or 2 club lengths from a hazard there is still a 2 club length max roll out from where the ball first struck the course.

Here is a decision that explains this.

20-2c/1

Dropped Ball Rolling Out of Prescribed Dropping Area

Q.A player taking relief under the Rules sometimes appears to obtain more relief than he is entitled to because the relevant Rule allows him some latitude within which to drop and the dropped ball then rolls some distance from the place where it was dropped. When a Rule prescribes an area within which a ball must be dropped, e.g., within one or two club-lengths of a particular point, should it be re-dropped if it rolls outside the area so prescribed?

A.No, not necessarily. Provided the ball has been correctly dropped (Rule 20-2a) and does not roll into any of the positions listed in Rule 20-2c, it is in play and must not be redropped. In particular, under Rule 20-2c(vi), the ball may roll up to two club-lengths from the point where it first struck a part of the course when dropped, and this may result in its coming to rest an appreciable distance farther from the condition from which relief is being taken. For example:

(a) a ball dropped within two club-lengths of the margin of a lateral water hazard may come to rest almost four club-lengths from the hazard margin without the player being required to re-drop it under Rule 20-2c; and

(b) a ball dropped away from an immovable obstruction within one club-length of the nearest point of relief may come to rest almost three club-lengths from the nearest point of relief without the player being required to re-drop it under Rule 20-2c.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanS 

Ok and thanx for that, I think I understand. So when dropping from a hazard there is no roll out and the ball must be played inside that two club length drop zone, no nearer the hole.

When dropping for relief for any reason, there is always a maximum allowed roll of 2 clublengths from the point where the ball first touched the course when dropped.  There are other differences in what constitutes a requirement for a redrop, but the 2 clublengths is always the maximum roll. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt 

When dropping for relief for any reason, there is always a maximum allowed roll of 2 clublengths from the point where the ball first touched the course when dropped.  There are other differences in what constitutes a requirement for a redrop, but the 2 clublengths is always the maximum roll. 

Another point is "club length" is the club that you used to measure the one or 2 club lengths from the NPR or Hazard respectively.  There is no obligation to use the longest club although for obvious reasons that usually gives the most relief.  However, you could use your putter to measure the 1 or 2 club lengths and then the max roll out would be 2 putter lengths. 

Also, you don't have to use your own club when measuring, provided that there is a club in your bag that, when measuring, would give you the same results.

Regards,

John

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dormie1360 

Also, you don't have to use your own club when measuring, provided that there is a club in your bag that, when measuring, would give you the same results.

 

And you do not even have to actually measure with anything unless you want to be sure.

btw, easy rule when to use one club length or two to define dropping spot. If you get a free drop you use one club length. If you get a penalty then you use two club lengths.

Remember, whether you measure or not, when you drop the ball it must first strike the ground within the 1 (or 2) cl specified. It cannot just be dropped anywhere on the presumption the the further 2cl allowed rollout would cover it.

Can someone direct me to the rule that covers the two club-length distance within which the drop must occur after the NPR has been determined?  I can't seem to find it.  Thanks.

It's under Rule 20-2c  When to Re Drop.  It helps to memorize these 7 re drops.

c. When to Re-Drop

A dropped ball must be re-dropped, without penalty, if it:

(i) rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard; 

(ii) rolls out of and comes to rest outside a hazard;

(iii) rolls onto and comes to rest on a putting green;

(iv) rolls and comes to rest out of bounds;

(v) rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (immovable obstruction), Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3 (wrong putting green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a), or rolls back into the pitch-mark from which it was lifted under Rule 25-2 (embedded ball);

(vi) rolls and comes to rest more than two club-lengths from where it first struck a part of the course; or

(vii) rolls and comes to rest nearer the hole than:

(a) its original position or estimated position (see Rule 20-2b) unless otherwise permitted by the Rules; or

(b) the nearest point of relief or maximum available relief (Rule 24-2, 25-1 or 25-3); or

(c) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or lateral water hazard (Rule 26-1).

If the ball when re-dropped rolls into any position listed above, it must be placed as near as possible to the spot where it first struck a part of thecourse when re-dropped.

Note 1: If a ball when dropped or re-dropped comes to rest and subsequently moves, the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

Note 2: If a ball to be re-dropped or placed under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.

(Use of dropping zone – see Appendix1; Part B; Section 8)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slim from SF 

Can someone direct me to the rule that covers the two club-length distance within which the drop must occur after the NPR has been determined?  I can't seem to find it.  Thanks.

Once you determine the nearest point of relief, you must drop within ONE clublength of that point, but not closer to the hole.  Then if any of the conditions posted above should apply when the ball come to rest, you must redrop.  The only time that 2 clublengths is pertinent in a relief situation is if the ball rolls more than 2 clublengths from where it first hits the course. 

Two clublengths is only applied for determining the drop area if you are dropping from the margin of a lateral water hazard, not when you are dropping at the NPR for relief without penalty.

So the ball can roll two club lengths from where it hit the ground -- not two club lengths from the one club length. So if it hits the ground half a club length from the NPR, then you only get the extra roll out from that point, right? So it is not THREE club lengths unless your drop hits the ground exactly at that max point it is allowed to hit the ground. Do I understand it correctly?

And if dropping because you elect/must to replay a shot (OB or unplayable...) do you get two club lengths from the spot of your last shot plus roll out?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustyredcab 

So the ball can roll two club lengths from where it hit the ground -- not two club lengths from the one club length. So if it hits the ground half a club length from the NPR, then you only get the extra roll out from that point, right? So it is not THREE club lengths unless your drop hits the ground exactly at that max point it is allowed to hit the ground. Do I understand it correctly?

 

And if dropping because you elect/must to replay a shot (OB or unplayable...) do you get two club lengths from the spot of your last shot plus roll out?

 

You have the first part nailed.

As to the second question, through the green you must drop as close to the original spot as possible,  after that the 7 rules above apply.  Greens would be a place, a tee shot can be re-teed.anywhere in the teeing area..

20-5. Making Next Stroke From Where Previous Stroke Made

When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows:

(a) On the Teeing Ground: The ball to be played must be played from within the teeing ground. It may be played from anywhere within theteeing ground and may be teed.

(b) Through the Green: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green.

(c) In a Hazard: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course in the hazard.

(d) On the Putting Green: The ball to be played must be placed on theputting green.