Match play, both players commit loss-of-hole act

Just got off the Morgan Pressel slow-play penalty page, which I've about had enough of, but this thought came to mind.

Say this happens, that each player in a match does something on the same hole that has a loss-of-hole penalty attached to it. Could be anything. On paper, both players lost the hole, but when you put the pieces of paper together it doesn't make any sense.

Is the hole halved? Does the one who did it first lose the hole?  Something else? Got a Rules reference?

And when should the players be notified?

If right away, then the effect is for the second player to win the hole since she can simply conceded the hole (ending it) and therefore win it before she has a chance to do anything wrong. If it is to be a secret until they both play out, then they both could commit a loss of hole offense.

It could be noticed at the same time ("Hey, I hit the wrong ball." "Seems I did too."). In that case is the one who hit the wrong ball first that looses? Pretty hard to imagine a simultaneous loss of hole penalty.

From some of the decisions that I remember, like both players hitting a wrong ball, the player who "broke the law" first loses the hole.  I'll see if I can dig up some examples.......after dinner.

As far as being notified, remember match play is quite a bit different than stroke play.  If the committee is unaware of a rules infraction, the match stands as played.  Really doesn't make a difference if rules were broken as long as it was done UNKNOWINGLY and no timely claims have been made by a player.  If the players agree on the results of a match....that's the end of it.

If the committee is aware of an infraction, they will notify the players as soon as possible.  If it's a loss of hole penalty, they will make every effort to notify both players before the next tee.

I cannot find a situation where the first player to breach an appropriate rule does not lose the hole. Whatever his opponent did or does next is irrelevant.

There you go.  I can not remember one either. As a matter of fact if player A concedes a hole, and subsequently finds out that player B had already lost the hole due to a penalty, player A's concession is irrelevant.  B has already lost the hole.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-02/#2-4/9

Read this one at your own risk....

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-30/#30-3c/3

So, the official should have stepped in and awarded the hole to Munoz before she missed the putt she thought would halve the hole. The hole was over when Pressel putted out over the time limit. Munoz could not have incurred her own loss of hole penalty because the hole was over.

And since putting after a hole was completed was a big issue, I'd say the official blew this by waiting.

You've lost me. No, the official needed to step in before the next tee, so players knew how the match stood.  As you said, Munoz's putt was irrelevant, but there is nothing wrong with her continuing to putt.

What big issue are you talking about with a player continuing to putt after a hole is lost or conceded......not sure what you mean.

Are you confusing this with a 4-Ball match where other partners are still playing the hole?

Still not buying this point. Like has been said, for any rule, if the players are unaware of a rules violation that occurred, they should (obviously) continue play as normal. The officials need to make an effort to notify them in a timely manner, but I don't think I've ever heard that amount to interrupting the play of a hole. Even when practice putts are not being permitted, an extra putt played in the completion of a hole that turns out to have been irrelevant just isn't a significant enough event that they should blow the horn and race out to stop it.

With respect to both players losing a hole, the one situation I can think of would be both players having 15 clubs in their bag and discovering it before teeing off on the next hole. There's no "first violator" there. Of course, that rule has a differently enforced penalty.

Let's hold it right here. There is a Pressel/Munoz thread and this one is not it. Please.

Is that the issue...practice putts weren't allowed?   I gave up on the other thread long ago.

Nice thinking. And the winner would be? Push? Should each get a slap. :)

When on the clock, wouldn't taking an unnecessary putt be considered causing an unreasonable delay? I bet there is a rule about that somewhere.  Maybe unsportsman like conduct since you are  actively trying to not get off the clock.

Well the first one to tee off broke the rule first. Hole is over right then.

Really not trying to spread that one anywhere else. The "issue" about an "unnecessary putt" goes beyond that, even if it was brought up there. But you're right, it is irrelevant to handling two players committing a loss of hole act so I'll drop it.

I thought of another situation that could result in this sort of situation. I suspect it's rare, but has probably occurred in informal golf. Probably less likely among the pros where there are more eyes, better control, and generally more care taken to identify balls.

Two players play a hole. Each hits their tee shot into heavy rough, hits their second shots into heavy rough, and finish the hole. On the next tee, it is discovered that each is playing a wrong ball, but it is not known for either player whether it occurred on the first or second shot out of the heavy rough. How would this be resolved?

If it can not be determined when the balls were exchanged, (who played first with the wrong ball) the hole stands as played.  If this is discovered during play of a hole and it can not be determined when the exchange happened, the hole must be played out with the exchanged balls.  Rule 15-3

As far as both players breaching Rule 4-4 too many clubs, if this is discovered by both players at the same time there is no adjustment made to the match.

Thanks, John. That makes sense to me. Not to return to the other topic here, but I think these point to the conclusion being that if both players violate the pace of play rule, the outcome of the hole would stand as played.

It seems John is saying first one to violate the rule looses. If they can not tell who was first to violate the rules then the hole stands. So, if you play the wrong ball, and it is discovered, the hole is over before your opponent can also make a mistake.

Again, not to go back... but if player A seems close to the per-shot time max, but player B takes too long on a single shot before the hole is completed by A, player B looses since player B violated a loss of hole rule first. Nothing player A does after player B took too long on that shot matters.

Yes, I think that's the case, e.g., if you took 61 seconds on a single stroke. As I understand it, that'd be the end of the hole. I think that would be true whether or not they made the determination immediately and "blew the whistle," or let the hole play out and informed them later. How to handle that is something of a different question---but there's certainly precedent for canceling the results of a few strokes after a penalty occurred.

It's also true that the first player to make a stroke has an opportunity to lose the hole before the other player does anything. That's just the way the game works, somebody has to go first.

Edit: To clarify, though, even if you take 61 seconds, I think it would still be possible for the other player also to be over time if their average were too high. That's something that should be clarified if it's not already.

I don't think two players can incur the time penalty on the same hole in match play. One of them had to incur it first and that player looses right then. Further actions do not matter. Sure, letting a player keep playing after the hole is over does not change the hole result. But that extra play could have an effect on the match in many ways. What if someone gets hurt while playing after the hole is over but they don't know it because the official kept it secret waiting for them to reach the next tee?

When it is over, it is over and there is no reason to keep it secret be it a time penalty or any other loss of hole penalty.