80 yarder- How would you play this one?

Originally Posted by Audaxi

All I want to know is if the hole really is 90 feet higher, because I play mountain golf fairly often and can only think of one hole like that, but it's 90 feet over the entire hole. Would be interesting to see a picture of that kind of hole.

Originally Posted by MEfree

80 yards with a decent lie in right rough (3" with ball down but dried out and somewhat thin)  to an extremely raised green (+90 feet?) with a very strong wind behind.  Middle (white) hole location on a green that is 29 yards deep with the first third a false front. The course is at 9 K above sea level.  Greens were very fast today (11+) and moderately firm (rain a few days ago, but dry and sunny since).  Green slopes back to front but is flatter the back half, but still a tricky chip if you go long (especially from the wrong side of the cart path)

So what shot would you play?

I hit a mostly full 60 degree wedge high into the air towards the pin that landed 9 yards onto the green, 4.5 yards short of center and 8 yards short of the hole (which was a bit back of center, but I didn`t know that when I hit it).  I don't suck it back very often, but I hit a high ball that tends to land soft and stop close to my ball divot mark.

Where do you think I ended up?

a.  40 yards short of the pin (at the bottom of the hill leading up to the green)

b.  In the hole!

c.  25 yards past the pin (wrong side of the cart path)

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

-I think the order of the choices themselves is subtly drawing us towards Choice B. I think you did this in an attempt to mislead us. Placing the most exciting choice second seems to suggest to me you randomized them on purpose. If you had the choices in "escalating" order, (with holing out being third) it would be anticlimactic if the correct choice weren't the most exciting one. Similarly, placing the most exciting one first would cast doubt on it. You wanted us to be weighted away from choice A, but not so much as to cast suspicion.

Maybe some or all of that was wrong, but it was some entertaining sleuthing. Let us know if we're right.

I've never heard of a 90 foot elevation change to a green. Was there a ski lift to get up there, or did you maybe exaggerate? Even in the mountains, 90 feet over 80 yards is way too steep. You couldn't get a golf cart with 2 fat guys in it up that slope, so I don't see course designers going for it. Maybe if you're in a ravine, really in the stuff. I'll assume it's an imposing but more realistic slope, however. 90 feet would mean the average golfer couldn't hit to it at his shot's apex. I'd guess if I were playing at sea level, I'd hit my 62 degree full hoist, ball in the middle of my stance, try and just get it super high. Let the wind and green height take care of the landing. I could probably get that club over 90 yards at sea level, but I think the rough would take enough off my club speed to turn out OK and anything less than a full swing might not cut through it. Normally I prefer to play a lower shot but the rough prevents consistent spin. The 62 is perfect because it has low bounce and the ball sitting down doesn't have to result in a chunkfest or skull. At elevation, I'd probably try to gouge it out with a 9 iron and run it up despite the high slope. I'd never be able to trust my shot to spin out of that lie, and at elevation the low backspin would be made worse, essentially making the flyer effect more dramatic. If I can control ball speed and launch angle, it'd be good enough. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/60390/] [/URL] My guess for the outcome for you is: Choice A. Why? I think I can take some of the subtext of your post to learn about you. -If you can get the bounce of the club to work off the firm ground, there's a lot of spin and clean contact to be had. It looked fluffy, but I'd bet you could have bottomed out just right and gotten insane spin, especially with vokeys in decent condition(and presumably a Titleist tour ball of some sort). This could also surprise someone who hadn't done it often before, enough to make them start a thread. -The creation of this thread is most likely based on a complaint, as is common. You think you played a reasonable shot, but I infer that your result seemed unfair, or at least surprising. You wanted to share your misery and try to understand what happened. Hence, though you may have bluffed this whole thing and actually holed it, I don't think you'd go this far. This thread is detailed and everything seems consistent with a surprising result, but I don't think all the hints of bad shots are red herrings. Gut intuition here, but it would be a pretty overworked attempt at deception. -I believe you've been in the spot from choice C, but not this time. But that seems to me like your usual miss, IMO. You wouldn't start the thread if you'd hit it to a familiar spot. No, you hit a shot quite out of the ordinary for you. -You admit you thought the pin was in front. Combined with my likely deduction you've missed long before, I think you were trying to get it to land just past the false front, ideally. If you landed it where you did with your usual spin, I think it would have been perfect. Yes, you landed it exactly where you wanted. -You saw where it landed. But wait... this green is highly elevated. There's no way you could see it. It must have left a big pitch mark, especially with some rain in the last few days. This is unlikely if you hit it skidding off the back. I must admit, this could fulfill the classic golfing trope of finding your pitch mark, then the ball in the hole. But I still stand by my deduction. In fact, a steep descent angle with lots of spin would certainly make a big mark whereas a low spinning shot with rollout would likely leave a less noticeable one. -On a fast green, with a false front, it's all too easy to have a ball slide off the front. It probably had enough spin to back up perhaps 2 yards, easily enough to catch the slope. -The wind casts doubt on the whole affair. It's hard to believe you could leave it short with what you describe as a very strong one helping. But surely you, a single digit handicapper who I believe has been long on this shot before, would play a shorter shot to compensate? I think you were trying to land it short of center, succeeded, but got lots of spin. The fact this outcome is so hard to believe is exactly why I believe it, and why you were motivated to make this thread.  -Saying you normally don't spin the ball back seems a classic red herring, begging the obvious choice of choice A. But the clever man would never fall for such an obvious ruse. But the very clever man, you see, knows you are actually daring him not to choose the obvious answer. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/60393/] [/URL](Edit: You are now reading this in my voice.) -I think the order of the choices themselves is subtly drawing us towards Choice B. I think you did this in an attempt to mislead us. Placing the most exciting choice second seems to suggest to me you randomized them on purpose. If you had the choices in "escalating" order, (with holing out being third) it would be anticlimactic if the correct choice weren't the most exciting one. Similarly, placing the most exciting one first would cast doubt on it. You wanted us to be weighted away from choice A, but not so much as to cast suspicion.  Maybe some or all of that was wrong, but it was some entertaining sleuthing. Let us know if we're right.

Originally Posted by MEfree

Good job Sherlock...A is correct and a lot of your reasoning was accurate and entertaining, but I'll make a few corrections.  I believe the shot rolled back more due to gravity and the very fast greens, not any suck back effect.  On a flat green, I would have thought my ball would have been pretty close to where it landed (and may even have rolled a bit forward due to the relatively firm, raised green, rough and tail wind).  I have played this hole decently in the past and while I have been a bit long at times, this has not been a recurring problem).  I thought the pin was in the middle (not 3 yards back) and wanted to land it pin high.

Like I said above, I was guessing at the 90 feet and could very well be wrong...+40 to 60 is probably more accurate thinking about it as almost all the elevation comes the last 40 yards.

The pro said he would have thought about playing a lower shot to let it roll back, but to me, this would mean trying to land on the false front which doesn`t seem that appealing to me.

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

I can't resist a good test of wits. Luckily, even though it took a long time to write and no one had posted yet when I began, no one else guessed right, even randomly. Of course some were jealous of my uncommon powers of inference, but that's to be expected.

Of course I wasn't suggesting you routinely miss this green long, but it seemed to me you were familiar with the consequences of doing so. We have to walk past the area short of the green, but often ignore the area behind. It would be uncommon to walk around a course and actively take notice of such a spot unless you had to at some point.

Quite a surprising outcome if the ball didn't actually suck back. Certainly there's some strong grain from drainage, the wind dries things out, and the false front may be steeper than I originally considered, but I'd still expect a ball with wind behind it to stop.

I'd say the pro could probably play a good shot from there, but it would be really hard to judge, especially with the greens playing fast like that. I wouldn't have done anything too different from you, perhaps I'd have chanced going long or aimed at a bigger part of the green; that wind could help you greatly on the pitch from the back of the green.

The most important thing is: What did you learn from all this?

And out of curiosity, did you actually find the pitch mark, or could you see it land?

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

-The creation of this thread is most likely based on a complaint, as is common. You think you played a reasonable shot, but I infer that your result seemed unfair, or at least surprising. You wanted to share your misery and try to understand what happened. Hence, though you may have bluffed this whole thing and actually holed it, I don't think you'd go this far. This thread is detailed and everything seems consistent with a surprising result, but I don't think all the hints of bad shots are red herrings. Gut intuition here, but it would be a pretty overworked attempt at deception.

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

I can't resist a good test of wits. Luckily, even though it took a long time to write and no one had posted yet when I began, no one else guessed right, even randomly. Of course some were jealous of my uncommon powers of inference, but that's to be expected.

Of course I wasn't suggesting you routinely miss this green long, but it seemed to me you were familiar with the consequences of doing so. We have to walk past the area short of the green, but often ignore the area behind. It would be uncommon to walk around a course and actively take notice of such a spot unless you had to at some point.

Quite a surprising outcome if the ball didn't actually suck back. Certainly there's some strong grain from drainage, the wind dries things out, and the false front may be steeper than I originally considered, but I'd still expect a ball with wind behind it to stop.

I'd say the pro could probably play a good shot from there, but it would be really hard to judge, especially with the greens playing fast like that. I wouldn't have done anything too different from you, perhaps I'd have chanced going long or aimed at a bigger part of the green; that wind could help you greatly on the pitch from the back of the green.

The most important thing is: What did you learn from all this?

And out of curiosity, did you actually find the pitch mark, or could you see it land?

Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer

Id go with A because with that wind, youre going to get some rollout.  Id play that shot with my 50 degree wedge.

Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer

Id go with A because with that wind, youre going to get some rollout.