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I Agree and I Disagree

iacas

By iacas,
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iacas

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The format of this thread (which is open to anyone) is as follows:

1) Post a picture, quote, link to an article, etc. which contains a golf-related topic you want to discuss.

2) Tell us why you agree.

3) Tell us why you disagree.

Follow-up posts can discuss the topic until someone posts a new agree/disagree!

That's it!

Let's start:

I agree…

… that many amateurs have a poor grip. For many, it's far too much in the palm.

I disagree…

… that most people slice because of the clubface. Most slicers I've ever seen are swinging WAY left. Whether they're doing this because they used to have an open face and by swinging left they can point the face left a little as well is somewhat immaterial as far as I'm concerned. What matters is that when I change a player to swing more OUTward (i.e. not so far left or INward), their face doesn't magically move along with the path. It tends to stay relatively square to the target, so their slice is minimized or turned into a draw.

I have a tremendous success rate fixing "the path" rather than the clubface, and I see little need to "fix the clubface" (so the person can hit low bullet pulls first) and then fixing the path.

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Erik J. Barzeski — ⛳ I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • Author, Lowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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14ledo81 Super Member

14ledo81

I agree... with both of your statements.

One question for you though.

How many slicers do you see hitting push fades?

This seems like it would be a bit harder to diagnose (without trackman or some other device).  If I am thinking correctly, someone hitting push fades certainly has a face pointing right (for a righty), but there path could be right (a little), straight, or left??

-Matt-

"does it still count as a hit fairway if it is the next one over"

DRIVER-Callaway FTiz__3 WOOD-Nike SQ Dymo 15__HYBRIDS-3,4,5 Adams__IRONS-6-PW Adams__WEDGES-50,55,60 Wilson Harmonized__PUTTER-Odyssey Dual Force Rossie II

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iacas Hall of Fame Member

iacas

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How many slicers do you see hitting push fades?

This seems like it would be a bit harder to diagnose (without trackman or some other device).  If I am thinking correctly, someone hitting push fades certainly has a face pointing right (for a righty), but there path could be right (a little), straight, or left??

Very, very, very few. I once asked a guy with tens of thousands of lessons under his belt and he said he could count them on one hand.

The severity of the fade would give a clue as to how far left the path was.

Erik J. Barzeski — ⛳ I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • Author, Lowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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14ledo81 Super Member

14ledo81

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

How many slicers do you see hitting push fades?

This seems like it would be a bit harder to diagnose (without trackman or some other device).  If I am thinking correctly, someone hitting push fades certainly has a face pointing right (for a righty), but there path could be right (a little), straight, or left??

Very, very, very few. I once asked a guy with tens of thousands of lessons under his belt and he said he could count them on one hand.

The severity of the fade would give a clue as to how far left the path was.

Thats kind of what I thought.

Might be getting a bit OT here, but I am going to go for it anyway.

When I started, I was your typical pull slicer.  I was able to fix my path, but I actually did start hitting straight pushes and push fades.  They did not have a lot of curvature to them though.  This is why I assumed (for me) the problem was more in the face.  Again, for me, the "revving the motorcycle" feel has worked wonders.

-Matt-

"does it still count as a hit fairway if it is the next one over"

DRIVER-Callaway FTiz__3 WOOD-Nike SQ Dymo 15__HYBRIDS-3,4,5 Adams__IRONS-6-PW Adams__WEDGES-50,55,60 Wilson Harmonized__PUTTER-Odyssey Dual Force Rossie II

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Jakester23 Great Member

Jakester23

I feel like the grip is a very important part. Now having said that my slices were almost always pulls. Every now and again I'd hits push fade but that was rare. I don't think many people hit push fade. From what I've seen most people hit pull fades.
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BrrrrMan78 Member

BrrrrMan78

@iacas I totally agree that fixing the path is the most important thing to correct ball flight. However, I'm guessing your success with conversions to a draw should also highlight the first part of the article, slightly improper grip. In my experience amateurs get so enamored with hitting a draw it corrupts all the work you did on swing plane and they end up drop kicking everything because they are stuck inside on the way back and the grip issues take over. Thoughts?

Adams XTD Driver Callaway Big Bertha 3-wood Adams Pro One Hybrid Ping S55 4-PW KBS Tour Titelist Vokey 52, 56, 60 Odyssey Versa #7 I play The Wheel weekly, and live and die for 2 down auto's

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iacas

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@iacas I totally agree that fixing the path is the most important thing to correct ball flight. However, I'm guessing your success with conversions to a draw should also highlight the first part of the article, slightly improper grip.

In my experience amateurs get so enamored with hitting a draw it corrupts all the work you did on swing plane and they end up drop kicking everything because they are stuck inside on the way back and the grip issues take over. Thoughts?

I have not had that experience (that guys we teach to draw the ball suddenly start to drop-kick their shots and get "stuck" to the inside). Getting "stuck" is a better player's problem, typically - and those players are not coming to me with a slice that needs fixing.

It's true that a lot of amateurs swing left because it's the easiest way to move their low point forward and to TRY to have better contact. I disagree that most amateurs have such horrible grips that it causes the major issues you seem to believe it does. Most of the grip changes are relatively minor, though necessary.

P.S. I also don't really find that my students are "enamored" with anything. I have more students who prefer a draw over those who prefer a fade, but it's not a big margin. A lot of my guys hit fades.

  • Upvote 2

Erik J. Barzeski — ⛳ I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • Author, Lowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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MS256 Great Member

MS256

I don't slice the ball, and never did, but if I flip everything around and apply it to hooks instead of slices:

Changing my grip (or opening the club face more) doesn't do much except let me hit some really great looking balls that are off line to the right.

Closing the club face might help me get through a round with hooks that actually hit the fairway but don't have much distance.

The only long term answer is to have a better swing path. Some days it's halfway acceptable and some days it's not.

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Note: This thread is 3481 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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