Mid-Pines vs. Pine Needles

[iacas]

I've decided to have a little match play playoff to determine the better course: Pine Needles or Mid-Pines. These are solely my opinion, and I encourage you to do the same. Also, my opinion might be different tomorrow, let alone a few weeks, months, or years from now. I'll rate the holes from the Blue (6732 yards) tees at Mid-Pines and the Ross (6435 yards) at Pine Needles.

Let's get started.

Hole 1

Mid-Pines: 401 yds. Par 4
Pine Needles: 485 yds. Par 5

A nice view from Mid-Pines, downhill and then uphill, but a somewhat tight opening tee shot to a small, undulating uphill green that is tough to approach from the left side. I like the "warm handshake" of the uphill-then-down opening tee shot at Pine Needles, as it's always nice to start your round off with a birdie, and the hole is NOT without its challenges, especially if you miss right with the first or second shot.

Winner: Pine Needles (PN 1UP)

Hole 2

Mid-Pines: 190 yds. Par 3
Pine Needles: 440 yds. Par 4

I don't love that you can't see the green from the tee at PN, rendering the tee shot a bit more bland than it could be at PN. MP second is a difficult par three to a green that looks minuscule and probably plays even smaller, with a large shoulder on the left side that rejects balls sternly.

Winner: Mid-Pines (TIED)

Hole 3

Mid-Pines: 437 yds. Par 4
Pine Needles: 135 yds. Par 3

This is a tough one. At MP, it's a dogleg right over a pond where you're asked to carry as much of the trees as you can to the right, before hitting an uphill shot to the green. At PN, it's one of my favorite types of holes, and one we don't see often enough: a short par three to a well guarded and undulating green. They tie this hole, with PN winning because we need more of these short holes.

Winner: Pine Needles (PN 1UP)

Hole 4

Mid-Pines: 330 yds. Par 4
Pine Needles: 375 yds. Par 4

A short hole at MP versus a longer hole at PN, both playing uphill, both with somewhat severe greens. They bend the opposite direction, though: left at PN, right at MP, and PN has a pond that's not in play. I don't want to have too many ties, so I'm going to split the last one which was almost a tie and give the edge to Mid-Pines here, as this feels like a hole you should birdie, but good luck doing so.

Winner: Mid-Pines (TIED)

Hole 5

Mid-Pines: 484 yds. Par 5
Pine Needles: 189 yds. Par 3

A long par three at PN that favors a cut (the green is both angled and slopes to the right) versus a reachable, mostly downhill-until-the-end par five with a pond at MP. The tee shot feels a bit bland at MP because you can't see what lay ahead, but the second shot is far more interesting than the par three tee shot at PN.

Winner: Mid-Pines (MP 1UP)

Hole 6

Mid-Pines: 537 yds. Par 5
Pine Needles: 410 yds. Par 4

Back-to-back par fives at MP, and a fairly standard par four at PN. Though it plays into the wind, typically, it's downhill and has a pond that cuts off half of the fairway about where you'd lay up if you were forced to, and the width at the green isn't all that wide, either. At PN, again, it's a fairly standard par four with a blind green from the tee, so by a sliver, the win here goes to…

Winner: Mid-Pines (MP 2UP)

Hole 7

Mid-Pines: 383 yds. Par 4
Pine Needles: 405 yds. Par 4

These are going to be close. Similar lengths, with PN really favoring a draw off the tee and a bit downwind, and MP playing uphill and favoring anything down the left-hand-side. At the end of the day, the slight dogleg gives the benefit to…

Winner: Pine Needles (MP 1UP)

Hole 8

Mid-Pines: 179 yds. Par 3
Pine Needles: 355 yds. Par 4

A short-is par four versus a fairly difficult par three that plays downhill and takes off a club or two. The green at MP was firm, and even balls landing with height on the front of the green bounded well over, without much room to bounce the ball on, while the short-ish par four required two good shots and a green with good internal movement that wasn't quite as dramatic as other greens (which, honestly, makes it trickier in some respects).

Winner: Pine Needles (TIED)

Hole 9

Mid-Pines: 340 yds. Par 4
Pine Needles: 370 yds. Par 4

I'd call the ninth at MP a "cape hole" of sorts, but the entire inside of the fairway is littered with tall pines. I push-cut a 3W there (my intention was to cut it), and somehow found the right half of the fairway about 245 out. At PN, the hole is also small but uncharacteristically narrow, and features a GREAT swale/hollow/cut-out short right of the green. By the slimmest of margins…

Winner: Pine Needles (PN 1UP)

Hole 10

Mid-Pines: 514 yds. Par 5
Pine Needles: 480 yds. Par 5

Two par fives square off. At MP, the tee shot is somewhat blind - you drive up a hill and, from there, see the green. At PN, the hole takes you over a pond that's not in play and over a bunker on the inside of a 70° dogleg that shouldn't be in play. Lack the stones to hug the left side at PN and you'll find yourself amongst the tall pines on the short right side at PN, while at MP the par five is among the more boring on the course (which doesn't make it boring itself, just relative to the other holes at MP).

Winner: Pine Needles (PN 2UP)

Hole 11

Mid-Pines: 189 yds. Par 3
Pine Needles: 379 yds. Par 4

MP features a downhill par three that plays quite a bit less than the yardage, and without much room to land the ball for a run-up type shot. PN's par four looks narrower from the tee than it plays, and invites you to bite off some room to the right but protects that room with bunkers and waste area. While I like a good one-shot-hole, I've got to give the edge by another slim margin to…

Winner: Pine Needles (PN 3UP)

Hole 12

Mid-Pines: 380 yds. Par 4
Pine Needles: 350 yds. Par 4

I'll be honest: I had to look up this hole for PN, so the downhill dogleg left at MP wins this one. If I can't remember a hole I've played within the last month, that's not the best endorsement. Maybe the hole is great, and I'm forgetting it because of how I played it, but this is my ranking, subject to change, so… that's the way it goes.

Winner: Mid-Pines (PN 2UP)

Hole 13

Mid-Pines: 232 yds. Par 3
Pine Needles: 180 yds. Par 3

A long, slightly uphill par three versus a very downhill par three. Both have undulating greens (the green at MP is a bit more subtle and a bit larger, as it should be), but I love a downhill par three. I love the strategy, the way the wind can toy with you more, the fact that you can see the entire hole and green. While I enjoy an occasional brutish par three, the win here goes to…

Winner: Pine Needles (PN 3UP)

Hole 14

Mid-Pines: 361 yds. Par 4
Pine Needles: 400 yds. Par 4

The PN par four is deceptive - it looks like you have a LOT of room down the left, but it doglegs well before your tee shot reaches the end of its flight. The real play is either a big cut or to play aggressively over the bunkers on the inside of the dogleg. At MP, it's a straight-away hole but the land movement keeps things interesting, and the green has another false front without being all that deep, really putting a premium on getting your wedge distance right.

Winner: Mid-Pines (PN 2UP)

Hole 15

Mid-Pines: 542 yds. Par 5
Pine Needles: 485 yds. Par 5

A battle of the par fives once again. I love them both, and played them almost the same - Driver, hybrid to just short/left. At PN, that put me in a bunker. At MP, just in the fairway. The tee shots at both are exciting: they're downhill to relatively wide, right-to-left sloping fairways. At PN, there's a bunker in the landing area that narrows the very wide fairway up a bit, and at MP, the scruffy left edge keeps you honest in a slightly narrower window. The tee shot at MP looks a LOT narrower than it is, and then the hole opens up. The approach at PN feels more risky, but the movement at MP makes this one close. It's a coin flip depending on the day…

Winner: Mid-Pines (PN 1UP)

Hole 16

Mid-Pines: 440 yds. Par 4
Pine Needles: 180 yds. Par 3

Man. The par four at MP plays steeply downhill to a dogleg left fairway. Bite off a bit more than you can chew and another bunker on the inside of a dogleg will catch you, or you'll be in the trees. And the 16th at PN is one of the great par threes, with a waste bunker that deceives you into thinking the green is closer than it is, with wide open space around it furthering that misperception. This one, like the last, is a coin flip. So I'm giving the win to…

Winner: Pine Needles (PN 2UP)

Hole 17

Mid-Pines: 391 yds. Par 4
Pine Needles: 430 yds. Par 4

A somewhat quirky hole at PN - if you don't drive it over the inside corner of the near-80° dogleg, you'll run through into the trees. Or if you lay back and out to the right with a 3W, you'll face a long approach shot. It's quirky, but it works, even if the homes do feel a bit close. At MP, the hole is a reasonably simple par four that doglegs HARD to the right, requiring either a big cut or something less than driver to stay in the fairway. From there, a flip wedge of some sort to another false fronted green.

Winner: Mid-Pines (PN 1UP)

Hole 18

Mid-Pines: 411 yds. Par 4
Pine Needles: 405 yds. Par 4

The home hole at PN is very good. A big downhill par four with lots of room, with your second shot playing from a downhill lie to a green perched up like most others. At MP, the hole requires a draw… or a very small fade hit on a very precise line, playing back uphill to a great green. The setting at the winner is what seals the deal, as the practice green and bar/restaurant as well as many rooms at the Inn can observe play on the home hole.

Winner: Mid-Pines (TIED)

Tiebreaker

Hell if I know. They're both great courses. Mid-Pines is a slightly better test of your driving, while Pine Needles is grander in scale. I like the par threes at PN slightly more, but the par fours are ever so slightly better at MP with the variety and direction. I couldn't care less about some quirks of each course — back-to-back par fives at MP, a halfway house at 9 tee on PN, and other little things — and I'm generally against waffling and hedging bets and riding fences, but I've got to do it here. No clear winner.

I came into this thinking Pine Needles would win, but I gave it an honest playoff and ended up tied.

If, gun to my head, I had to pick one, I'd pick Pine Needles simply because the course conditioning was ever so slightly better at PN. At MP, I believe they'd sprayed recently to kill off the rye, so the grass was patchier and a bit longer in the fairways, and the conditions are usually a little softer/moister at MP. Plus, PN has hosted US Women's Opens, if you're into that sort of thing.

[saevel25]

I'll come back in September to this one. I will be playing these courses during the same week. I might spend some time taking notes. 😉

[rvanculin]

Not a huge discrepancy, but there is also a halfway house at MP. 

Also, hole 3, you said they tied, but gave the win to PN.

Both great courses, though.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, rvanculin said:

Not a huge discrepancy, but there is also a halfway house at MP.

Yeah. But it’s at 10 where it should be. So, not a quirk.

2 hours ago, rvanculin said:

Also, hole 3, you said they tied, but gave the win to PN.

I decided ties weren’t allowed. 🙂

[DaveP043]

I've played MidPines a lot more, and I can't remember as many of the holes at Pine Needles so clearly.  The one I chuckled at was #12.  I don't remember the PN hole either, but I think 12 at MP is one of the better holes there.  Downhill dogleg left, tons of room to bail out right.  But the green angles from front left to back right, so you only get the best angle if you drive over the bunker at the corner of the dogleg.  From everything I've read, this is a classic Donald Ross principle, to give you lots of room off the tee, but only really reward a drive in the right spot.

[GolfLug]

Quote

I came into this thinking Pine Needles would win, but I gave it an honest playoff and ended up tied.

Good, I guess I'm not the only one who found it difficult to pick one clearly over the other. Having said that I have played both courses once (a year apart) and favored Mid-Pines a tiny bit more as I thought was a visually bit more pleasing and at least during my play at each course I thought conditioning at MP was better by a hair.

Pine Needles is the bigger course but chips and pitches were extremely hard to stop on the perched up umdulating greens. Ran quite a few off the green on the other side unless you picked them crisply. Ruined a few holes played reasonably tee to green, well, tee to nGIR.

Mid-pines green seemed slightly more friendly. Par 3s are some of the best I have seen anywhere. 

Either way, great golf. Great write up on the comparison.

Edited April 26, 2020 by iacas
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