USGA handicap system is bogus

[azflying]

I play in two leagues, one that uses a "league handicap" and the other uses the "official USGA handicap".

I've played in two tournaments with group using the USGA handicap in the D-flight (15-18 handicap) and both times someone in my foursome shot an 82. Wow..career rounds just in time to win all the money...how about that.

I post every round I play, good and bad, because I believe that is the intent of the USGA handicap system.

It is now my opinion that there are a significant number of people who only post their worst rounds to improve their tournament results. Now I am new to golf and maybe this has gone on since the beginning of time, but I am totally soured on the use of USGA handicaps and will no longer participate in any tournament that uses them where the cost of the prize fund is more than $10. I am OK with someone cheating me out of $10, but no more.

The other league uses the league handicap which works great because you may walk off with the cash once or twice but your handicap will go down and there is no way to pad it back up with a bunch of bogus rounds no one sees.

I think this is a problem, maybe I am alone.

[iacas]

It is now my opinion that there are a significant number of people who only post their worst rounds to improve their tournament results. Now I am new to golf and maybe this has gone on since the beginning of time, but I am totally soured on the use of USGA handicaps and will no longer participate in any tournament that uses them where the cost of the prize fund is more than $10. I am OK with someone cheating me out of $10, but no more.

Your problem isn't with the "USGA Handicaps."

Your problem is with cheaters.

[Shindig]

I think this is a problem, maybe I am alone.

Plenty of people are with you. The problem isn't the USGA Handicapping System. People who do as you describe are called sandbaggers, and you need to call them out on it.

Check out various discussions about ways to deal with sandbaggers, both are http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/index.html and on this site. The odds of someone in the range you described shooting 4 under his handicap is about 87:1 - not entirely unreasonable, just a nice coincidence. Check out http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html for the odds on someone beating his handicap significantly. And I'm serious about this last point: call them out on this, especially if you find rounds not posted or tournament rounds posted as casual scores (good tournament rounds stick around in the handicap record longer). Call them cheaters and sandbaggers, to their face, in front of their friends, once you have evidence of it. Shame them away and, if you still have your money after it's been "won" by a sandbagger, keep it. A good round is one thing, but a statistical improbability happening every week isn't.

[Craig Mac]

I think it is more a matter that some people just sandbag their scores to do well in handicap tournaments. We played with a guy who would pick up his ball on the 18th fairway, so he wouldn't be able to enter his score because technically he didn't "finish the round". But he would do this on bad rounds so his handicap wouldn't go up.

I have seen in tournaments where peoples adjusted score would be a 62 or even as low as a 58. I think it would be safe to say that these people are lying about their handicaps in order to win tournaments. They are 18+ handicaps and shoot a 76 in a tournament, go figure. It's amazing that these people don't get disqualified. I think that the USGA handicap system is good, but people aren't always honest about their scores and try to manipulate the system.

[JerseyThursday]

It’s interesting that the golf handicap system is devised by “grown ups”.

As a kid growing up playing golf, no one ever mentioned handicaps. You would play in various junior tournaments and the kid with the lowest score won. Then as you got older, you tried out for the high school golf team. The five guys with the lowest 4 out of 5 tryout rounds made varsity. All the strokes counted.
Then you enter the screwed up world of adults where a total hack can beat you because of his handicap or extra “pops on a hole” because of his flight.

Tom Morris would puke

[Shindig]

I think it is more a matter that some people just sandbag their scores to do well in handicap tournaments. We played with a guy who would pick up his ball on the 18th fairway, so he wouldn't be able to enter his score because technically he didn't "finish the round". But he would do this on bad rounds so his handicap wouldn't go up.

Actually, if you finish over a number of holes - I forget the exact number, but it's <= 17 - you put what you "would have gotten" on the remaining holes. No, don't just put down birdies! I think the rule is to figure out how many strokes you'd get vs. a 0-handicap and give yourself net-par.

If your acquaintance (I won't insult you by assuming you're friends with this guy) does this again, tell him what his score would have been and make him post it. Report him for sandbagging to the committee if you're in the same club otherwise.

[azflying]

The odds of someone in the range you described shooting 4 under his handicap is about 87:1 - not entirely unreasonable, just a nice coincidence. Check out

Thanks the support and the links. I checked out the odds table. His handicap was actually a 21, he was in E-flight!

I'm not too familiar with using the handicap system, but an 72+21 = 93, an 82 is 11 under his handicap (I'm sure I didn't do that right), which is off the charts. It's not that I'm all angry about this, I'm just disappointed. The more familiar I get with the system the more disappointed I become. Since golf is based on player integrity and self-goverened, I can not think of how this problem can be addressed unless only tournament scores submitted by USGA sanctioned clubs are used for tournament results and you're a Callaway until you play in one tournament.

[azflying]

On a similar note, this tournament was Stableford scoring. After you reach double-bogey your score doesn't go down anymore. What keeps you from running up your total to the equitable stroke control, i.e. once you hit 5 on a par-3 just write down 7. It may come in handy next tournament

[NM Golf]

My club has instituted a new policy to deal with this. Any exceptional net score shot in a tournament is adjusted before it gets posted. Basically you cannot shoot a score and post it in a tournament if it should occur less often then 1:100 on the USGA odds of shooting an exceptional score table. link
So if you are a 15 handicap you cannot post a score in one of our tournaments that is lower than 68. Shoot a 61 net it gets posted as a 68. Then we just put the score into the GHIN computer and let it do its thing. I like it no more winners shooting 62.

[Shindig]

Thanks the support and the links. I checked out the odds table. His handicap was actually a 21, he was in E-flight!

What is the course rating and slope rating for the tees he was playing from? We can use this to show you how to calculate how far under his handicap he was.

[wachesawgolfer]

I just linked to the USGA exceptional score odds. They are kidding right? People shoot all types of scores. I had a 95 and a 81 lately. Some days the luck is all good, some days its all bad. That is just part of the game. I generally think your handicap is your range up or down. Say you are a 20 hcp.On any given day you could be 10 over that or 10 under. I think the range narrows as your hcp. goes down. I am amazed at folks you gripe because somebody doesn't shoot their handicap in "most" instances. The reality of the handicap system is a 20 has a much greater chance of winning a net tournament over a 5 because of this spread. Also, the higher handicaps are capable of and are improving whereas, by the time your a single digit, improvement comes at a slower pace. Is the system fair, in a word no. And it never will be no matter how honest everyone is because of the larger "spread" as the hcp. increases.

To me having gross score events and bracketing winners at certain levels makes a lot of sense. The best at each level or gross score tier will surface and no one can complain. Well maybe they will find something....

[Shindig]

I just linked to the USGA exceptional score odds. They are kidding right? People shoot all types of scores. I had a 95 and a 81 lately. Some days the luck is all good, some days its all bad. That is just part of the game. I generally think your handicap is your range up or down. Say you are a 20 hcp.On any given day you could be 10 over that or 10 under. I think the range narrows as your hcp. goes down. I am amazed at folks you gripe because somebody doesn't shoot their handicap in "most" instances. The reality of the handicap system is a 20 has a much greater chance of winning a net tournament over a 5 because of this spread. Also, the higher handicaps are capable of and are improving whereas, by the time your a single digit, improvement comes at a slower pace. Is the system fair, in a word no. And it never will be no matter how honest everyone is because of the larger "spread" as the hcp. increases.

Shooting a 91 can mean different things on different courses. Are you familiar with how course rating and slope rating work?

[DougM]

Although I do agree in that most issues are the result of ' sandbaggers ', I have to say that the handicap system can be a pain at times. I play at a club that is only 5600 yards and gets a rating of 65.2. The maintenance team protects the course with tight fairways and shaggy rough and small greens.
Guys from here go to other courses with a 10 handicap and shoot 75 and everyone whines at them but at home that is normal score so this is not out of line.

We have been trying to get the officials to come and redo the rating but it never seems to happen.

PS - last year in a tournament we had 3 scratch players from local courses show up and play... their scores 76,78 and 80.

[allin]

I just linked to the USGA exceptional score odds. They are kidding right? People shoot all types of scores. I had a 95 and a 81 lately. Some days the luck is all good, some days its all bad. That is just part of the game. I generally think your handicap is your range up or down. Say you are a 20 hcp.On any given day you could be 10 over that or 10 under. I think the range narrows as your hcp. goes down. I am amazed at folks you gripe because somebody doesn't shoot their handicap in "most" instances. The reality of the handicap system is a 20 has a much greater chance of winning a net tournament over a 5 because of this spread. Also, the higher handicaps are capable of and are improving whereas, by the time your a single digit, improvement comes at a slower pace. Is the system fair, in a word no. And it never will be no matter how honest everyone is because of the larger "spread" as the hcp. increases.

Thats exactly why your low 10 of 20 are used. Otherwise if I shoot regularly in my 85-89 range you have a tremendous advantatge because your handicap is much higher yet our potential best score is about the same.

[Craig Mac]

Actually, if you finish over a number of holes - I forget the exact number, but it's <= 17 - you put what you "would have gotten" on the remaining holes. No, don't just put down birdies! I think the rule is to figure out how many strokes you'd get vs. a 0-handicap and give yourself net-par.

We work together and have only played together once, but he has told me he has done this several times. I wrote a funny story on here about him being drunk on the course. We have never played in a tourney together. Not that this justifies his mentality but, if it was a handicaped event he would only be hurting himself because he never shoots what his handicap is, at

least 10 shots worse. He is usually too drunk to keep it together. But it did make for good entertainment.

[Shindig]

We work together and have only played together once, but he has told me he has done this several times. I wrote a funny story on here about him being drunk on the course. We have never played in a tourney together. Not that this justifies his mentality but, if it was a handicaped event he would only be hurting himself because he never shoots what his handicap is, at

Oooh, I mis-read it earlier. So he has a vanity handicap then? Well, those are expensive. Play handicapped nassaus with him then

[Craig Mac]

So he has a vanity handicap then? Well, those are expensive. Play handicapped nassaus with him then

I just looked up his scores from the World Amateur Handicap Championships last year and he shot net: 76 81 90 97 I guess his pride doesn't want to admit that he is worse than a 22 handicap.

[azflying]

What is the course rating and slope rating for the tees he was playing from? We can use this to show you how to calculate how far under his handicap he was.

69.0/115

Thanks for your help.