First Club Championship Tournament, Any Pointers?

[DaveP043]

22 minutes ago, Sandy Lie said:

So yesterday our Club played another InterClub match.  All the players gathered around the Host Club Head Pro and went over the course conditions and said we are playing “Lift, Clean and Place”.  So after he concluded and said are there any questions I asked him are we following Rule 14 as described and not just casually moving the ball with a club?  I also described the procedure.  Another player from our opponents Club said yes that’s how we will do it.  
 

And of course a complaint was mentioned that it would slow down play!  What a surprise!  Just amazing!  We won the match!

What's interesting is that Model Local Rule E-3 requires the player to place the ball within a specific relief area, but does not require the ball's original location to be marked before it is lifted.  This is consistent with many other free relief procedures, most (maybe all) of which do not require a player to mark either the original spot or the reference point.  So to add the step requiring marking of the ball would indeed slow down play, at least by a tiny bit.

[Sandy Lie]

6 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

What's interesting is that Model Local Rule E-3 requires the player to place the ball within a specific relief area, but does not require the ball's original location to be marked before it is lifted.  This is consistent with many other free relief procedures, most (maybe all) of which do not require a player to mark either the original spot or the reference point.  So to add the step requiring marking of the ball would indeed slow down play, at least by a tiny bit.

True, but with 4 players in a group there is time to do it per the rules.  Heck, many players take forever to hit the ball so if they are paying attention to what’s going on in the group  it’s practically impossible to slow down play.

Ever play with the guy in your foursome that that comes to the tee with no glove on, no club, and the other 3 guys are ready to go?  There’s a guy who slows down play.  You have to admit that there are many examples of slow play that don’t compare to following a simple rule.
Playing in a Tournament or a Match I would say in most cases it balance out.

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, Sandy Lie said:

True, but with 4 players in a group there is time to do it per the rules.  Heck, many players take forever to hit the ball so if they are paying attention to what’s going on in the group  it’s practically impossible to slow down play.

Ever play with the guy in your foursome that that comes to the tee with no glove on, no club, and the other 3 guys are ready to go?  There’s a guy who slows down play.  You have to admit that there are many examples of slow play that don’t compare to following a simple rule.
Playing in a Tournament or a Match I would say in most cases it balance out.

You talk about playing per the rules, but the applicable Model Local Rule does NOT require you to mark.  It takes additional time to do an additional task, a task that is NOT required under the applicable rule.  The additional time is extremely small, but it IS additional.  The only reason you would be required to mark a ball before you lift it is when you are required to replace it in its original position.  LCP allows you to place it anywhere within the specified relief area, so marking the original location per Rule 14 is specifically NOT required.  Here's the applicable part of Rule 14.1.a:

Quote

Before lifting a ball under a Rule requiring the ball to be replaced on its original spot, the player must mark the spot which means to:

The LCP Local Rule doesn't require the ball to be replaced on its original spot, so the position of the ball need not be marked.  You are playing within the rules if you lift the ball (without marking), clean it, and replace it within the prescribed relief area.

[p1n9183]

Do the same pre-round routine you always do. Apply the same strategy you always do.
On the 2nd day if you know you are a couple off strokes behind change to a riskier strategy, you have nothing to loose. Have fun! enjoy the experience, each year you are going to do better.

 

[Sandy Lie]

6 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

You talk about playing per the rules, but the applicable Model Local Rule does NOT require you to mark.  It takes additional time to do an additional task, a task that is NOT required under the applicable rule.  The additional time is extremely small, but it IS additional.  The only reason you would be required to mark a ball before you lift it is when you are required to replace it in its original position.  LCP allows you to place it anywhere within the specified relief area, so marking the original location per Rule 14 is specifically NOT required.  Here's the applicable part of Rule 14.1.a:

The LCP Local Rule doesn't require the ball to be replaced on its original spot, so the position of the ball need not be marked.  You are playing within the rules if you lift the ball (without marking), clean it, and replace it within the prescribed relief area.

Agree with you 100%. However we were not playing a local rule.  

[iacas]

49 minutes ago, Sandy Lie said:

Agree with you 100%. However we were not playing a local rule.  

If it was lift, clean, and place… you were.

[Sandy Lie]

Will have to disagree once more.  We were not playing a local Rule.  We agreed to play to Rule 14-1.  And yes they appear to be similar, but marking before lifting was required. It’s what took place.

Appendix I to the Rules of Golf, Section 3-b.

Adverse conditions, including the poor condition of the course or the existence of mud, are sometimes so general, particularly during winter months, that the Committee may decide to grant relief by temporary Local Rule either to protect the course or to promote fair and pleasant play. The Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as the conditions warrant."-- Rules of Golf, Appendix I; Part B; Section 3b.
 

14.1 Marking, Lifting and Cleaning Ball

This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to movefrom its spot.

a. Spot of Ball to Be Lifted and Replaced Must Be Marked

Before lifting a ball under a Rule requiring the ball to be replaced on its original spot, the player must mark the spot which means to:

• Place a ball-marker right behind or right next to the ball, or

• Hold a club on the ground right behind or right next to the ball.

If the spot is marked with a ball-marker, after replacing the ball the player must remove the ball-marker before making a stroke.

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Sandy Lie said:

Will have to disagree once more.  We were not playing a local Rule.  We agreed to play to Rule 14-1.  And yes they appear to be similar, but marking before lifting was required. It’s what took place.

You keep trying to "disagree" with things that are basically factual, not opinions. The ten-shot-difference from one set of tees to another, I showed doesn't often occur when going from the farthest to the shortest tees, and in this case, you're arguing about Rules, which are fairly well understood and concrete. Either you (your club, your pro, whatever) did something that wasn't really by the book because you should have been playing under the Local Rule. That's why it's there. It might possibly be because you're misunderstanding what a "Local Rule" is. Many people think it's a Rule that's made up to suit the course or some unique condition, but Local Rules are all pre-written and/or pre-approved by the USGA, basically. Many courses abuse the "Local Rule" and say things that are just made up, but that doesn't mean it's valid.

Read Dave’s post above. And what you wrote:

1 hour ago, Sandy Lie said:

that the Committee may decide to grant relief by temporary Local Rule

You were almost surely playing under the Local Rule (LCP is E-3 as Dave said) and because you aren’t required to replace the ball you didn’t have to mark the location.

Committees can’t just make up rules on their own. I’m sure they strongly recommend marking because then it makes it easier to know where your relief area is, but it’s not required.

I’ve picked up a ball in LCP events, rolled it in my hand to clean it, and put it back down in the relief area. All fine.

P.S. Though the end of the Local Rule says “replacing” it’s the procedures for replacing, Rules 14.2b(2) and 14.2e, which you can look up. It tells you literally how to place a ball and what to do if it won’t stay.

P.P.S. There is no Rule 14-1. 14.1 deals with replacing a ball on the same spot, which you almost surely weren’t doing.

[DaveP043]

11 hours ago, Sandy Lie said:

Will have to disagree once more.  We were not playing a local Rule.  We agreed to play to Rule 14-1.  And yes they appear to be similar, but marking before lifting was required. It’s what took place.

Appendix I to the Rules of Golf, Section 3-b.

Adverse conditions, including the poor condition of the course or the existence of mud, are sometimes so general, particularly during winter months, that the Committee may decide to grant relief by temporary Local Rule either to protect the course or to promote fair and pleasant play. The Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as the conditions warrant."-- Rules of Golf, Appendix I; Part B; Section 3b.
 

14.1 Marking, Lifting and Cleaning Ball

This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to movefrom its spot.

a. Spot of Ball to Be Lifted and Replaced Must Be Marked

Before lifting a ball under a Rule requiring the ball to be replaced on its original spot, the player must mark the spot which means to:

• Place a ball-marker right behind or right next to the ball, or

• Hold a club on the ground right behind or right next to the ball.

If the spot is marked with a ball-marker, after replacing the ball the player must remove the ball-marker before making a stroke.

 

You're using bits from the 2016 rules (or older), and bits from the current 2019 rules.  The first says the Committee can establish a local rule for sloppy conditions.  That hasn't changed, but the 2019 rules define an acceptable model for that Local Rule.  You are ALWAYS required to play under current rule 14.1, which applies when you are lifting a ball "to be replaced on its original spot".  But if you are lifting and cleaning, the Model Local Rule says you are allowed to place the ball anywhere within a specified area, not necessarily on its original spot.  Rule 14.1 does NOT apply where you are not required to replace the ball on its original spot.  Rule 14.1 does not apply in the case of an embedded ball, for instance, or when taking relief from an immovable obstruction, since in each case you are not replacing the ball on its original spot.

But I do have a question that @iacas may be able to answer.  The Model Local Rule allows the committee to define the size of the relief area.  Could the Committee define that size in a way to require the ball be placed in its original location?  And if they can make that choice, wouldn't 14.1 apply automatically?

[iacas]

4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

But I do have a question that @iacas may be able to answer.  The Model Local Rule allows the committee to define the size of the relief area.  Could the Committee define that size in a way to require the ball be placed in its original location?  And if they can make that choice, wouldn't 14.1 apply automatically?

Not to my knowledge at all. An area isn’t a spot. They can restrict it to the same type of lie (though they generally don’t, as those aren’t really defined), but generally six inches is the smallest area I’ve seen used.

The point of specifying how you get the ball into the area is by placing, not dropping or rolling it.

[DaveP043]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

Not to my knowledge at all. An area isn’t a spot. They can restrict it to the same type of lie (though they generally don’t, as those aren’t really defined), but generally six inches is the smallest area I’ve seen used.

The point of specifying how you get the ball into the area is by placing, not dropping or rolling it.

That's what I thought, and the Model Local Rule pretty much implies that the distance from the Reference Point should be something in the range of 6 inches to one clublength, but greater than "zero" in any event.  And placing, as opposed to dropping, makes sense since this Local Rule generally wouldn't be used unless conditions are pretty sloppy.