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Sinik,

    This has been the problem with  golf instruction for many years - these guys are on the right track , but if they have any idea WHY the DOMINANT RIGHT ARM works this way they do explain it .  What they took 15 minutes to explain takes me about 3 seconds when I teach . You simply HOLD the grip/ butt end of the shaft / lever and pull it/ lift it / throw it ( whatever definition you choose to use describe it ) back somewhere around behind your torso and form a lever system ( angle between your arms and shaft) so your  left side LAT and back muscles are fully STRETCHED  and ready to PULL you back around and provide the necessary power to propel your golf ball - AND the simple intent /signal from your DOMINANT HANDS starts this sequence of events. 
   You see - the left side of the brain controls right side of the body and is more than 89% dominant in the average right hander and the human body will always position itself to accommodate the path it’s DOMINANT HANDS desire to travel .

     Teaching the BS should only take a few seconds . Their is nothing complicated about it. It only takes up approx. 7/10 seconds of the swing . The DS is where the attention should be directed . That which only takes 2/10 seconds and where the rubber meet the road . 
Good luck - I expect I will be banned for giving advice. 

   

 

 

s

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8 hours ago, Lane Holt said:

Good luck - I expect I will be banned for giving advice.

I'll address this right from the top.

You continue to get warnings not because you're "giving advice." Not even because you're giving bad or terrible advice.

You continue to get warnings — and those warnings will escalate until you get 50 points and you're permanently banned if the action(s) continue — because you're being intellectually dishonest. You're not engaging in an actual discussion or debate, while simultaneously whining about how nobody will engage with you in a debate.

You do not tag people. You do not quote people. You do not respond to the points that others make against the nonsense that you post.

That's intellectually dishonest.

love swing discussion. I adore swing theory. I relish the chance to learn something new, for someone to show me that I'm wrong about something, or can do something better.

What you post ain't that. It's not any of that.

8 hours ago, Lane Holt said:

Teaching the BS should only take a few seconds.

Yeah, no.

The backswing is how you set up the crucial 0.2 seconds that creates the downswing. I teach a LOT of backswing work, because… it's so important.

8 hours ago, Lane Holt said:

Their is nothing complicated about it. It only takes up approx. 7/10 seconds of the swing.

I agree it's not "complicated" but that doesn't mean it's easy, and it doesn't mean that you can just get the backswing to any ol' spot and you'll be fine. Not remotely accurate.

@sinik is not going to have a very easy time playing good golf from the position on the left. What he's going to do is star the downswing by getting to the position on the right, which he does, from which at this point he cannot recover. From which he will make multiple compensations and have a lower ceiling on distance and consistency than he wants.

01.jpg

8 hours ago, Lane Holt said:

The DS is where the attention should be directed . That which only takes 2/10 seconds and where the rubber meet the road . 

What good do directions on how to get from the Eiffel Tower to the Musée d'Orsay do a guy who is in Berlin?

8 hours ago, Lane Holt said:

This has been the problem with  golf instruction for many years - these guys are on the right track , but if they have any idea WHY the DOMINANT RIGHT ARM works this way they do explain it.

You're a one-trick pony, and the problem with that is… that your one trick doesn't even work half the time. This doesn't say anything except to lump "golf instruction" into one big bucket, while you are over here acting like every golf problem is in one big bucket labeled "dominant hand" or something.

8 hours ago, Lane Holt said:

What they took 15 minutes to explain takes me about 3 seconds when I teach.

You don't teach. You may think you do, but teach golf. You might have a few people who humor you now and then, but I suspect that few would call what you do "teaching."

8 hours ago, Lane Holt said:

You simply HOLD the grip/ butt end of the shaft / lever and pull it/ lift it / throw it (whatever definition you choose to use describe it)

Oh my.

  • How you hold it matters a great deal.
  • Pulling, lifting, throwing? Those are synonyms to you? No. C'mon man.
8 hours ago, Lane Holt said:

back somewhere around behind your torso and form a lever system ( angle between your arms and shaft)

NO!

Your arms do not move "around" or "behind" your torso. NO NO NO NO NO NO!

In fact, that's part of what @sinik most needs to correct, because he IS pulling (or throwing? or lifting?) his arms around his torso.

8 hours ago, Lane Holt said:

so your  left side LAT and back muscles are fully STRETCHED  and ready to PULL you back around and provide the necessary power to propel your golf ball - AND the simple intent /signal from your DOMINANT HANDS starts this sequence of events.

No.

Also, muscles are not all that elastic. You don't really "stretch" them much - that's not how muscles work. Ligaments and tendons will stretch a bit, muscles… not so much.

8 hours ago, Lane Holt said:

You see - the left side of the brain controls right side of the body and is more than 89% dominant in the average right hander and the human body will always position itself to accommodate the path it’s DOMINANT HANDS desire to travel.

You don't seem to care where they travel during the backswing, but you end up talking out of both sides of your mouth (so to speak) because you'll point out that the downswing is 0.2 seconds, and you can't possibly control much in that time span (I agree, see below), but then you completely dismiss the backswing and say that all of your efforts should be focused on the downswing.

So, there's your challenge. Defend your position by addressing the points I've made above. Use whatever examples you want to use, but do it in THIS topic. You must quote or specifically address things. You can't just ignore what's written above and talk about the cortical homunculus or something.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Slim,

    As wonderful as the human brain is - it can ONLY perform one (1) task in the 2/10 seconds of time allotted for the DS and that ONE task must be preprogrammed before the shaft is taken back BC the normal human reaction time is 1/10 seconds and obviously making changes / alterations during the DS would be impossible . 
   If this is factual , and it is , I would suggest you learn which  ONE (1) thought you deem as being of utmost importance BC you won’t be able to think about those many others you are describing! 
 Good luck !

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Oy.

On 5/17/2021 at 8:48 PM, Slim_Pivot said:

5. Dont care about downswing today

It’s funny you posted what you posted after the OP has written that.

Also,what you wrote is not factual at all. You can have several thoughts in 0.2 seconds. What you cannot do is translate those thoughts into muscle action in that time.

Furthermore, you can practice multiple downswing thoughts or feels during a practice session because you can practice one of them for a few swings and then switch to a different one for a few swings.

It would be wise of you to respond to the golf swing related stuff in my post above.

You continue to completely undervalue and underrate the importance of the backswing and getting to a good position at the top and what that allows  or mandates a golfer to do during the downswing.


In other words, though you’ve claimed to want a discussion you seem only interested in one-sided spouting of the    message.

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Furthermore, nobody is even really saying that an individual statement or two that you have made is false. What people are saying is that there's a whole helluva lot more to the golf swing than understanding that the downswing is 0.2 seconds and that the brain really likes to think about the right hand.

A helluva lot more.

You don't seem to grasp that in the slightest. You don't seem to grasp that the backswing is sometimes (even "often") the thing that needs attention. You don't seem to grasp that you can work on two things in a single practice session, maybe just not on the same swing at the same ball. Etc.

58 minutes ago, Lane Holt said:

Iacas,

    Sir- the statement I posted on April 13 is ABSOLUTELY FACTUAL and is critical to achieving a successful golf swing . Genetics rule . They are a very critical part of the learning process and can NOT be ignored.

 

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10 hours ago, Lane Holt said:

Iacas,

    Muscles don’t * stretch * ? Huh??? 

Not like you said. I said they aren’t very elastic. They aren’t.

So, let me get this straight. The one thing you chose to discuss… you get wrong. Ooooookay.

And let’s be clear: I’m not talking about stretching like you do after a run.

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Sir,

    Muscles are constantly stretching and pulling our bones to form levers for our everyday functions. Those stretching and pulling muscles that pull the lever down and around to provide the necessary power to propel a golf ball - or any object . 
   Just my opinion, but I put very little emphasis on the BS when I teach. I consider the DS as being much more important and where the difficulty lies !

 

   

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8 minutes ago, Lane Holt said:

Sir,

    Muscles are constantly stretching and pulling our bones to form levers for our everyday functions. Those stretching and pulling muscles that pull the lever down and around to provide the necessary power to propel a golf ball - or any object . 
   Just my opinion, but I put very little emphasis on the BS when I teach. I consider the DS as being much more important and where the difficulty lies !

 

   

That’s not how muscles really work. They contract and relax. Here’s some reading for you. There will be a quiz.

 

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Boogielicious,

     Thanks for the great info .I will read much more of it . I am sure you are much more knowledgeable than I am and I probably wouldn’t pass your exam . I am just a simple man and simplistic language works well when discussing the golf swing - so  I will stick with the last sentence under the second topic- *Musculoskeletal System * .

    That’s seems to work for me .

Thanks much ! Great to hear from you !

    

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3 hours ago, Lane Holt said:

Muscles are constantly stretching and pulling our bones to form levers for our everyday functions. Those stretching and pulling muscles that pull the lever down and around to provide the necessary power to propel a golf ball - or any object.

As Scott said, that's not really "how muscles work." Tendons and ligaments are elastic. Muscles are really not, and a "stretched" muscle isn't really an effective muscle. A relaxed muscle has room to contract… and that's about it.

And let's remember the context:

On 5/5/2021 at 7:43 AM, Lane Holt said:

You simply HOLD the grip/ butt end of the shaft / lever and pull it/ lift it / throw it ( whatever definition you choose to use describe it ) back somewhere around behind your torso and form a lever system ( angle between your arms and shaft) so your  left side LAT and back muscles are fully STRETCHED  and ready to PULL you back around and provide the necessary power to propel your golf ball - AND the simple intent /signal from your DOMINANT HANDS starts this sequence of events.

There are again two problems with this, primarily.

  1. "Stretching" the lat muscles doesn't result in much of anything. Your muscles aren't elastic, and your body isn't a "spring" like many often seem to think. Your body doesn't "uncoil" or "snap back" because you've "stretched" your muscles. Your muscles are often relaxed in this position, but that's not "stretched."
  2. I disagree entirely with the "[whatever action] somewhere around behind your torso." The hands generally don't move that far "around" and definitely don't go "behind" your torso in the slightest. They barely move "beside" your torso.
On 5/5/2021 at 7:43 AM, Lane Holt said:

Teaching the BS should only take a few seconds . Their is nothing complicated about it. It only takes up approx. 7/10 seconds of the swing . The DS is where the attention should be directed . That which only takes 2/10 seconds and where the rubber meet the road.

This idea continues to be the dumbest thing you say.

2 hours ago, Lane Holt said:

Thanks for the great info .I will read much more of it . I am sure you are much more knowledgeable than I am and I probably wouldn’t pass your exam . I am just a simple man and simplistic language works well when discussing the golf swing - so  I will stick with the last sentence under the second topic- *Musculoskeletal System*.

That sentence is "Muscles are very unique in this respect." The context is that muscles create movement. The full paragraph is:

Together, muscles and bones comprise what is called the musculoskeletal system of the body. The bones provide posture and structural support for the body and the muscles provide the body with the ability to move (by contracting, and thus generating tension). The musculoskeletal system also provides protection for the body's internal organs. In order to serve their function, bones must be joined together by something. The point where bones connect to one another is called a joint, and this connection is made mostly by ligaments (along with the help of muscles). Muscles are attached to the bone by tendons. Bones, tendons, and ligaments do not possess the ability (as muscles do) to make your body move. Muscles are very unique in this respect.

None of that says anything about stretching, and is grade-school-level science.

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4 hours ago, Lane Holt said:

Just my opinion, but I put very little emphasis on the BS when I teach. I consider the DS as being much more important and where the difficulty lies !

@Lane Holt (I did the "@" thing) - I'm not any sort of swing expert, but I completely disagree.

From personal experience, almost every time I go in for a lesson (monthly) the first thing my instructor points out is something related to backswing, which almost always pay instant dividends with better ball striking. Usually I can describe the misses I am experiencing, implement some backswing adjustments, and the misses for the most part resolve themselves, without any conscious change to downswing.

We work on downswing stuff too, and I have a lot of improvement to make in this area if I want to reach my goals, but if I'm not in a good spot at the end of the backswing, the downswing isn't going to save the swing. 

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12 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

@Lane Holt (I did the "@" thing) - I'm not any sort of swing expert, but I completely disagree.

You quoted, too, which is yet another ability that eludes @Lane Holt despite repeated requests.

13 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

From personal experience, almost every time I go in for a lesson (monthly) the first thing my instructor points out is something related to backswing, which almost always pay instant dividends with better ball striking. Usually I can describe the misses I am experiencing, implement some backswing adjustments, and the misses for the most part resolve themselves, without any conscious change to downswing.

 

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Sinik,

     If you observe the BS of Matt Wolfe you will observe that his right elbow is very much back behind his torso much like yours and much higher up than yours and he seems to play fairly well ! 
     I would also suggest you get away from talking about your right elbow as if it is a controlling factor . More than 40 % of your brain is dedicated to it’s extremities ( AKA - hands) . Their is a direct line / connection between your brain and your DOMINANT RIGHT HAND . Your DOMINANT HANDS *CONTROL * almost all body movements. 
   The right elbow does not control the HANDS . If you want proof - lock your right elbow and upper right arm against the side of your torso and tell me if your can rotate your right hand from a palm up position 180 degrees  to a palm down position? 
    This is why millions of players hit / throw / release from the top and hook and slice . 
Having basic knowledge of the human genetics / structure design is critical to achieving a first rate golf swing. 
    Control of the DOMINANT HANDS during the swing is key to a successful swing. Using them to square the face and / or to hit is disastrous. The human body will ALWAYS position itself to accommodate the path it’s DOMINANT HANDS desire to travel !

      Good luck and wishing you great success.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lane Holt said:

If you observe the BS of Matt Wolfe you will observe that his right elbow is very much back behind his torso much like yours and much higher up than yours and he seems to play fairly well!

He does, and his elbow does. Absolutely.

But what would be easier?

  • Learning the entire Matt Wolff swing, which has seemingly and utterly fallen apart after a hot two years.
  • Making a smaller change that's more like how 95%+ of the other top players (on the Tour or otherwise) swing the club?

And, if you look at Matt Wolff's swing, his upper arm is still well in front of him at A3. He then moves the clubhead about ten feet through space to get it to a SUPER shallow position:

01.jpg02.jpg

So again, which would be easier?

This is part of the problem with one-trick pony guys who don't teach. When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.

1 hour ago, Lane Holt said:

I would also suggest you get away from talking about your right elbow as if it is a controlling factor . More than 40 % of your brain is dedicated to it’s extremities ( AKA - hands). Their is a direct line / connection between your brain and your DOMINANT RIGHT HAND . Your DOMINANT HANDS *CONTROL * almost all body movements.

Yes, please take advice from a guy who spouts intellectual sounding stuff, but who can't differentiate between "their" and "there."

And no, 40% of your brain is not "dedicated" to the hands. So when your one-trick pony isn't even correct about his one trick…?

1 hour ago, Lane Holt said:

The right elbow does not control the HANDS. If you want proof - lock your right elbow and upper right arm against the side of your torso and tell me if your can rotate your right hand from a palm up position 180 degrees  to a palm down position?

@Lane Holt, how is that proof of anything? It's not.

Put your hand flat down on a table top and tell me if you can still move your elbow around. Heck, see if you can move your foot, or stick your butt out, or move your diaphragm. Can you smile and frown, too?

And let me ask you this: put your dominant arm down against your side. Raise your whole arm, moving your elbow in front of you. Does your hand also move? Yes. Now move it to the side of you? Does your hand keep going with the rest of your arm? Yes, it does. Because it's attached to the elbow.

What else is attached, effectively, to the elbow? The clubhead.

1 hour ago, Lane Holt said:

This is why millions of players hit / throw / release from the top and hook and slice.
Having basic knowledge of the human genetics / structure design is critical to achieving a first rate golf swing.

You've yet to demonstrate that you have a basic knowledge of human anatomy, genetics, or general science, let alone how that specifically applies to the golf swing.

1 hour ago, Lane Holt said:

Control of the DOMINANT HANDS during the swing is key to a successful swing. Using them to square the face and / or to hit is disastrous. The human body will ALWAYS position itself to accommodate the path it’s DOMINANT HANDS desire to travel!

And right now his "DOMINANT HANDS" (it's odd that you keep pluralizing it) are too far around the side of himself, and because they're attached to his elbow, which will NOT be able to "teleport" through his torso on the downswing… he's got to make a bunch of compensations to get down to the golf ball.


@Lane Holt, this is your final warning.

Failure to engage in an actual discussion with your next and future posts will result in your permanent banishment. You've been given many, many chances. You've shunned each and every one.

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Sir,

   Wow - pointing out my grammar error certainly should have convinced anyone that I am not qualified to have the necessary knowledge to post on your website! If you choose to ignore facts concerning human genetics/ structure that Is your prerogative.

    It is certainly obvious that your have a disdain for others thoughts and ideas and they will NOT be allowed and I understand you will ban me. This is your website and you can do as you please ! 
  

     

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Lane Holt said:

Sir,

   Wow - pointing out my grammar error certainly should have convinced anyone that I am not qualified to have the necessary knowledge to post on your website! If you choose to ignore facts concerning human genetics/ structure that Is your prerogative.

    It is certainly obvious that your have a disdain for others thoughts and ideas and they will NOT be allowed and I understand you will ban me. This is your website and you can do as you please ! 
  

you make no sense. First, plenty of people discuss and debate opposing opinions here and don't receive the repeated reprimands that you have for a number of reasons, so you're wrong on that point.  Second, if you actually read through all of the posts in which myself and others have quoted you, you don't respond to actual debate. You simply state your case, which generally is about genetics and how important you deem it to be (although no one on TOUR has a degree in it & I doubt any real knowledge of genetics)...which is obviously wrong. My kids could tell you that. In addition, you fail to follow the rules of quotes and addressing others while ignoring the debate.  

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@Lane Holt has been banned. The reason provided to him:

Quote

Goodbye.

Not once did you engage in a debate or discussion. You failed to reply with any substance, to reply to the points made against you, or to further a discussion.

Instead, you constantly posted bullshit and played the role of the victim.

It is not my responsibility to provide a platform for someone who wishes to behave in such an intellectually dishonest fashion. The Sand Trap will be better off without your bullshit.

Addition via subtraction.

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