The Stack System - A Conversation on Gaining Swing Speed

[klineka]

Had a nice warm day yesterday and the body was moving quick. Hit 6 drivers at the range before the Mevo+ died and every one of them was 120+ mph with the average being 122.8 mph and 3 of them at 124+. The most encouraging part was that I wasn't swinging all out max effort swings, I was still swinging hard but it was still controlled and how I feel like I would swing on the course.

That's definitely faster than I have been which is encouraging because The Stack numbers have plateaued a bit but nice to see the actual driver speed increasing. 

Ball speeds and smash factor are still down a bit since they're practice balls. I think the ones at my club are a little more accurate than the limited flight ones at the public range, so I did manage a 171 ball speed yesterday which was encouraging that I was able to get that out of a rock hard practice ball.

[klineka]

Completed the Full Speed Spectrum program and the progress check. Pleased with these results.

 

It recommended that I do Full Speed Spectrum again so that is what I am going to do. I'd like to get driver 120+ consistently. On fast days I can get 120+, but I'd like that to be my baseline and then reaching 125+ on fast days. 

[klineka]

My speed is definitely up. Had 2 drives on the course yesterday that went 312 and 318 yds measured via my GPS watch.

Hit 20 drives at the range today on the Mevo+ and average clubhead speed was 122mph with 15 out of the 20 at 120+mph and even managed to hit 127.0 and 127.6 which I think is probably my all-time fastest, 

[ChiTown]

On 6/11/2023 at 6:50 PM, klineka said:

My speed is definitely up. Had 2 drives on the course yesterday that went 312 and 318 yds measured via my GPS watch.

Hit 20 drives at the range today on the Mevo+ and average clubhead speed was 122mph with 15 out of the 20 at 120+mph and even managed to hit 127.0 and 127.6 which I think is probably my all-time fastest, 

@klineka thanks for the update. Sorry if you said this but about how long have you been on the system?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by ChiTown

[klineka]

8 minutes ago, ChiTown said:

@klineka thanks for the update. Sorry if you said this but about how long have you been on the system?

5 months now. I started in mid-Jan. I've done the foundations program and the Full Speed Spectrum program and just started the Full Speed Spectrum again. 

[ChiTown]

13 minutes ago, klineka said:

5 months now. I started in mid-Jan. I've done the foundations program and the Full Speed Spectrum program and just started the Full Speed Spectrum again. 

Wow. Thanks! Hope you continue to have success!

[Guest]

I am not a believer in training aids and think they are cash grabs. The reason why I don't find 99% of them helpful is the problem i have with this one. These training aids aren't golf clubs and it doesn't transfer over to the golf swing when you are holding a golf club. I think that you could use this and increase your clubhead speed while using the aid but I think when you then grab a golf club, it's not going to carry over. 

[klineka]

4 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I am not a believer in training aids and think they are cash grabs. The reason why I don't find 99% of them helpful is the problem i have with this one. These training aids aren't golf clubs and it doesn't transfer over to the golf swing when you are holding a golf club.

Which programs have you tried?

The device that comes with The Stack is pretty dang close to a golf club. It's a shaft with an actual grip

4 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

 I think that you could use this and increase your clubhead speed while using the aid but I think when you then grab a golf club, it's not going to carry over. 

And I think that you are wrong and I (and thousands of other people) have the numbers to prove it.

[ChiTown]

6 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I am not a believer in training aids and think they are cash grabs. The reason why I don't find 99% of them helpful is the problem i have with this one. These training aids aren't golf clubs and it doesn't transfer over to the golf swing when you are holding a golf club. I think that you could use this and increase your clubhead speed while using the aid but I think when you then grab a golf club, it's not going to carry over. 

You’re completely entitled to your opinion, and that’s fair. But as @klineka @iacas  and this thread have shown there is actual data showing both increased swing speed and distance with clubs.  Perhaps this is the 1% that is helpful. 

Edited June 17, 2023 by ChiTown

[iacas]

14 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I think that you could use this and increase your clubhead speed while using the aid but I think when you then grab a golf club, it's not going to carry over. 

Except that it does.

[SEMI_Duffer]

15 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I am not a believer in training aids and think they are cash grabs.

Some are.  Some work.  Some work for some people, not so much for others.

Without counting I'd say I've probably purchased as much as a dozen various training aids in the short time I've been learning to swing a club. Most of them were, admittedly, not money well-spent.  Some of them were very effective.

15 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

These training aids aren't golf clubs and it doesn't transfer over to the golf swing when you are holding a golf club.

You're flat out wrong.

Do you know what most golf trainers/coaches I follow recommend as step #1 to increasing club head speed?  General strength training.  Particularly compound moves such as squats, deadlifts, Romanian deadlifts, vertical presses, and rows.  None of those things involve a golf club and none of the movements even remotely resemble a golf swing.

15 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I think that you could use this and increase your clubhead speed while using the aid but I think when you then grab a golf club, it's not going to carry over. 

Except it does.  From what I've read there's even a degree of persistence.  That is to say the increases tend to stick, to a degree, even if you stop training.

[Guest]

Wow so you guys really feel good about being sold snake oil. You can claim that you have increased clubhead speed and distance but that doesn't make it true. One person said it best when he said "it's close to a golf club". It's not a golf club and I'd like to know how you expect to monitor what your swing speed would be if you didn't use this. Did you just start to test it after buying this thing? My guess is yes which makes it more likely that you will start to swing slower knowing that you want to increase it later to justify your purchase. I think it's more likely that one of you is the inventor or knows the inventor or something. 

If any of you are in the Las Vegas area and have this thing then I'll meet you at a driving range and I'll have to see it to believe it. I don't believe that anyone can increase their clubhead by swinging this thing and then picking up a golf club and it transferring over to the point of improvement. Let's make sure that we understand that. I don't think anyone would try this and then pick up a golf club and hit the ball better. An increase in clubhead does not translate to lower scores or better ball striking. In fact, an increase in clubhead will obviously increase your distance. Anytime that you increase your distance, you will also decrease your accuracy. That is physics and undeniable. I don't believe that the average player needs more clubhead speed when they can't hit it straight. Then they are just going to hit farther offline. 

To answer the other question, I have tried many training aids and have seen many training aids. I worked for 3 years at the Butch Harmon School of Golf and I worked at the Jim McLean Performance Center and I find training aids to be useless. I think everyone should have one of those clubs with the correct grip on it. I think that the Momentus is a good training aid because it strengthens the muscles used in the golf swing and will help flexability with the golf swing and it has the grip thing on it. Other than that, I've never used one that has helped me. The ones I have tried are: Greg Norman Secret, Tour Stryker, Orange Whip, Leadbetter aid (can't remember the name), medicus, impact bag, and a Laser Trainer Mat. Those are what I can think of off the top of the my head and I'm sure there's more that I can't think of right now. 

8 hours ago, iacas said:

Except that it does.

a lot of evidence and logic based reasoning here ... 

7 hours ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

Some are.  Some work.  Some work for some people, not so much for others.

Without counting I'd say I've probably purchased as much as a dozen various training aids in the short time I've been learning to swing a club. Most of them were, admittedly, not money well-spent.  Some of them were very effective.

You're flat out wrong.

Do you know what most golf trainers/coaches I follow recommend as step #1 to increasing club head speed?  General strength training.  Particularly compound moves such as squats, deadlifts, Romanian deadlifts, vertical presses, and rows.  None of those things involve a golf club and none of the movements even remotely resemble a golf swing.

Except it does.  From what I've read there's even a degree of persistence.  That is to say the increases tend to stick, to a degree, even if you stop training.

You said the word "some" four different times. How about actually naming what they are and then I can start to understand where you are coming from. Talking in general terms without specifics isn't evidence or proof. 

Did you know that more golf trainers/coaches aren't good at their job? Did you know that they will give you bad advice to make a buck or two? What's your handicap before and after these training aids that have helped you so much? You are just talking in general terms and you are using the fact that someone else recommended something that they probably sell in their pro shop as a reason they work when that isn't evidence. Evidence is giving specific example of what training aid you are referring to and how it improved your game.  Saying "it helped" isn't an answer. What technically in the swing did it help you with? 

18 hours ago, klineka said:

Which programs have you tried?

The device that comes with The Stack is pretty dang close to a golf club. It's a shaft with an actual grip

And I think that you are wrong and I (and thousands of other people) have the numbers to prove it.

Again more talk in general without specifics. You know thousands of people that have used this thing and improved? Doubtful. I doubt you know thousands of people that don't play golf. Who knows thousands of people??

[Guest]

I just noticed that on the front page of the forums that "TST Partners" has a bunch of training aids including The Stack. So this was just a fake post as a way to try and sell it? That's not very honest. 

I clicked on "The Stack" link and couldn't help but laugh at the quote that is big and bold on the page. "I have to be honest, it has helped me a lot". Anyone who starts out by saying "I have to be honest" is not being honest. Have you ever heard someone say, "I have to be honest, my name is ..." of course not. Nothing says I'm not telling you the truth like someone trying to convince you how honest they are. SMH

Edited June 18, 2023 by Guest

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Wow so you guys really feel good about being sold snake oil.

You're quickly venturing into jerk territory.

5 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

You can claim that you have increased clubhead speed and distance but that doesn't make it true.

Last year's U.S. Open winner has used the Stack to gain clubhead speed. If you want to doubt what two of the smarter guys in golf are putting out there (Marty Jertson, Sasho Mackenzie), go ahead, but results are out there if you take two seconds to look.

https://twitter.com/thestacksystem

5 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Did you just start to test it after buying this thing?

Your guess would be… wrong for many people. You can know, historically, what your clubhead speed is. Club fittings, regular sessions on a launch monitor… etc. Heck, the Mevo+ is fairly low cost and golfers use that and know what their clubhead speed is.

5 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I think it's more likely that one of you is the inventor or knows the inventor or something.

I know the creators pretty well. Which is one of the reasons why I trust it. The realized results are a lot of the other reasons.

Again… Matt Fitzpatrick has used it to gain actual, real speed and distance. And win a major.

2021: 293.5, 114.37, and 169.93
2023: 306.5, 117.89, and 177.35

But maybe he just wasn't measuring before… errr… wait…

5 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

If any of you are in the Las Vegas area and have this thing then I'll meet you at a driving range and I'll have to see it to believe it. I don't believe that anyone can increase their clubhead by swinging this thing and then picking up a golf club and it transferring over to the point of improvement.

Ample amounts of evidence say otherwise. I don't know what else to tell ya.

5 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Anytime that you increase your distance, you will also decrease your accuracy. That is physics and undeniable. I don't believe that the average player needs more clubhead speed when they can't hit it straight. Then they are just going to hit farther offline.

Two points to that.

First, if you can go from swinging 100 "full out" to making 110 MPH your "full out" speed, then you can make 106 or something your "cruising speed" which can actually increase your accuracy. They've (Sasho/Marty) seen this many, many times. People go from "swinging max speed" to "swinging smoothly" but actually faster, increasing their accuracy.

Second…

5 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I find training aids to be useless.

Thanks for your input.

5 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I think everyone should have one of those clubs with the correct grip on it.

There's no one correct grip… and you just said that training aids are useless.

5 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

a lot of evidence and logic based reasoning here ... 

In that specific statement? No. In the countless hours, studies, etc. behind it? Damn straight.

5 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Again more talk in general without specifics. You know thousands of people that have used this thing and improved? Doubtful. I doubt you know thousands of people that don't play golf. Who knows thousands of people??

Again… https://twitter.com/thestacksystem. He doesn't have to personally know them to be able to say it.

 

4 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I just noticed that on the front page of the forums that "TST Partners" has a bunch of training aids including The Stack. So this was just a fake post as a way to try and sell it? That's not very honest.

I detest liars, Jake, so if you want to go down that road, it's not going to go well for you. You're welcome to try to find the lie here. You won't, because there isn't one.

I put products I believe in the sidebar after I arrange discounts for them. We've been long-time users of the products and things listed there, with direct personal experience and results.

[ChiTown]

@Randomgolf99 I’ll play your game. 
 

7 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

. I think that the Momentus is a good training aid because it strengthens the muscles used in the golf swing and will help flexability with the golf swing and it has the grip thing on it.

So if the Momentus came in various weights and you were given a custom training regime then your opinion would be that this would be helpful? Sounds like the only difference is that you would prefer a standard club head vs the weight assembly. Is that the only material difference in your mind?

7 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

. I worked for 3 years at the Butch Harmon School of Golf and I worked at the Jim McLean Performance Center and I find training aids to be useless

What did you do there?
 

Let me ask you this. You have two students with identical swing traits except one can swing the driver at 90 mph and the other at 110mph. Their swings are identical in every ther respect. Fair to say that the 90mph swing wont hit the ball as far as the 110mph all things being equal. What would you tell the 90mph hitter to do to increase distance?

[klineka]

7 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Wow so you guys really feel good about being sold snake oil. You can claim that you have increased clubhead speed and distance but that doesn't make it true. One person said it best when he said "it's close to a golf club". It's not a golf club and I'd like to know how you expect to monitor what your swing speed would be if you didn't use this. Did you just start to test it after buying this thing? My guess is yes which makes it more likely that you will start to swing slower knowing that you want to increase it later to justify your purchase. 

My claim that The Stack increased my clubhead speed is based on facts. It's based on launch monitor (Mevo+) clubhead readings both before I started The Stack and after multiple programs of The Stack. 

On January 4th, prior to purchasing The Stack system, my average clubhead speed with driver was 110.2mph. On June 14th my average clubhead speed with driver was 121.4mph. That's with the same driver and shaft, the same fitness/workout routine, no major swing changes, same launch monitor, etc.

So yes, I did know exactly what my swing speed was and had been prior to The Stack and I know what it is now after completing multiple Stack programs. 

7 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

If any of you are in the Las Vegas area and have this thing then I'll meet you at a driving range and I'll have to see it to believe it.

What is there to see to believe? It's a golf shaft with different weights that you screw onto the end. It's the long term usage of it and following their protocols is what makes your clubhead speed increase, not just 5 swings at a driving range.

7 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I don't believe that anyone can increase their clubhead by swinging this thing and then picking up a golf club and it transferring over to the point of improvement. 

Why don't you believe that? I am proof otherwise. With actual numbers to back up my claim.

7 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Let's make sure that we understand that. I don't think anyone would try this and then pick up a golf club and hit the ball better. An increase in clubhead does not translate to lower scores or better ball striking. In fact, an increase in clubhead will obviously increase your distance. Anytime that you increase your distance, you will also decrease your accuracy. That is physics and undeniable. I don't believe that the average player needs more clubhead speed when they can't hit it straight. Then they are just going to hit farther offline. 

While an increase in clubhead does not directly mean someone will shoot lower scores, that's not what your original argument was about. Your original argument stated that you don't think this training aid will work to increase your clubhead speed. I do agree that increasing clubhead speed and lowering your score are two different things, but don't start shifting the goal post.

Your claim was that this training aid does not increase your clubhead speed, I (along with @iacas's Matt Fitzpatrick example) proved with actual facts that it does in fact increase clubhead speed.

8 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Again more talk in general without specifics. You know thousands of people that have used this thing and improved? Doubtful. I doubt you know thousands of people that don't play golf. Who knows thousands of people??

Well, the creators of The Stack system have the data from thousands of golfers who have gone through their protocols. Sasho MacKenzie highlighted some of the results recently (I forget the exact numbers they stated in terms of average clubhead speed gain so I dont want to misquote) on The Hack It Out podcast. Since you are skeptical, I highly encourage you to take a listen to that. 

[JetFan1983]

9 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

I think that the Momentus is a good training aid because it strengthens the muscles used in the golf swing and will help flexability with the golf swing and it has the grip thing on it.

This is exactly what the Stack does. Except it does it better.

The system is structured similarly to the way track and field athletes train. Five or six max reps, rest in between each rep for 30 seconds or so. Two minute rest between sets. Do six sets or something. Weights change between sets.

As your peak speed increases, so will your cruising speed, which we are defining as your stock driver swing. And of course you have to train with your actual driver. Get lessons too, work on technique, work slow in a mirror to build feel, hit half swings. Do whatever you gotta do, work as hard and smart as you need to to get better at this ridiculous game. Speed training is just one part of being a better golfer. But it's an important part, and we're really just figuring this out as a community these last few years. 

While the Stack doesn't ask you to make technically improved golf swings to make speed gains, we obviously are aware here how improving technique will increase clubhead speed. But the Stack is asking you to simply move your body faster than it is used to. One key part of getting faster is to train faster, and this is true across numerous sports. 

As your golf athleticism increases, so too will your ability to achieve more technically advantageous positions. Sometimes technique gains can be made by simply becoming more "golf athletic" and the Stack is a good way to find those kinds of improvements that can elude you if you're focusing on technique alone.

The Stack is a tool that helps golfers understand better where speed comes from and how to increase it. You can take the philosophies of the program and just use your own driver or something instead of buying it, though your gains might not be as consistent. You might not track your progress as well either since the Stack app makes that easy.

It's not snake oil though. The speed gains seen by its users are well documented by their ever increasing database collected by their app. You do have to consistently keep up with your training though to maintain your gains, similar to how you can't just get in shape, stop working out, and expect to keep your fitness. If only it was that easy.

"Use it or lose it."

[SEMI_Duffer]

9 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

You said the word "some" four different times. How about actually naming what they are and then I can start to understand where you are coming from. Talking in general terms without specifics isn't evidence or proof. 

Sure.  But, rather than pollute this thread with my meanderings on golf training aids, here: My Experiences With a Variety of Golf Training Aids

10 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

What's your handicap before and after these training aids that have helped you so much?

I've no idea what my handicap was or what it is.  Many of those training aids were acquired in my first, and and so far only, year playing, three years ago.  My handicap was sky-high then.  I've no idea where it'll be when I resume playing.  (Or even when I'll resume playing.  I'm not going to pollute this thread with that story, either.)