Stronger Tour: PGA or European?

[iacas]

Simple poll and what I hope will remain an on-topic discussion.

Obviously I feel the PGA Tour is the stronger tour, and the numbers back that up. The average OWGR of its contestants is higher than the European Tour events.

Why? Probably because there's more money here.

Please note that I'm not talking about the players or where they are from. Obviously the Europeans have several very good players.

[The Rambler]

I'd have to say it's the PGA Tour. Having the Worlds #1 and #2 players play on the PGA Tour exclusively is what, in my mind, makes the PGA Tour stonger.

[iacas]

I'd have to say it's the PGA Tour. Having the Worlds #1 and #2 players play on the PGA Tour exclusively is what, in my mind, makes the PGA Tour stonger.

If you look at it that way, yeah. I wish we could almost exclude Tiger from the discussion because he distorts just about every conversation, but even with him removed the PGA Tour still tends to have the stronger fields, so my vote would remain the same.

[michaeljames92]

simple. the pga tour has more money and attracts the better golfers for their tournaments. end of story. i am sure that if the european tour had more money to offer, it would get more pga tour players over to play. the european tour has some big money tournaments such as dubai and this is why certain golfers such as tiger, adam scott and justin rose switch between between tours for the big events.

[BASHERBAKER69]

The PGA tour showcases a lot of talent- there's no doubt about this, but then again so does the European tour. Both have great players and a lot of journeymen, or 'average' players as i like to call them. Indeed, around two thirds of the world's top 50 players play on the PGA tour rather than the European tour but that does not mean to say that this tour is 'better'. If we move outside of the top 50 it can be seen that there is strength in depth on the Euro tour with Monty (dare i say him) and David Howell and co in the world's top 100.

For sure there is more money, hype and publicity on the US tour but it is hard to say that it produces more capable players. We have to factor in the fact that the world rankings are skewed by how many events players play, how many they don't, invite only events (WGCs) and how many events are played outside of the respective tours in non sanctioned PGA/Euro tour events.

We have to look at why the USA has not won the Ryder Cup since 1999 at Brookline- is it because the majority of the PGA tour members play in a bubble on target golf courses that are not very challenging. The Euro players play on tighter less forgiving courses week in week out where course management is at the fore- thus, when it comes to an inter continental clash the Euro tour players have the edge quite frequently. It has been noted that some of the PGA tour members, like Scott Hoch and Kenny Perry are reluctant to travel to British shores because the courses are too much like hard work for them.

[iacas]

Indeed, around two thirds of the world's top 50 players play on the PGA tour rather than the European tour but that does not mean to say that this tour is 'better'.

The word I chose to use was "stronger," not "better." Frankly I wish we got to see more golf like the golf which is played in Europe. Though it's becoming more "American-like" itself from what I've seen, I miss the style of play that is still at least a little more prevalent over there.

But please, let's not confuse the topic: "stronger" is the word I chose, not "better."

We have to look at why the USA has not won the Ryder Cup since 1999 at Brookline- is it because the majority of the PGA tour members play in a bubble on target golf courses that are not very challenging.

Perhaps, but again most of the members on the European team play on the PGA Tour quite a bit as well. It's not like the European team is comprised solely of people who play the European Tour exclusively. Many members of the European teams in recent years went to college in the U.S., have homes in the U.S., and play on the PGA Tour quite a bit.

The Euro players play on tighter less forgiving courses week in week out where course management is at the fore-

You've just said above that a lot of the European players play on the PGA Tour. Now suddenly they're playing "week in week out" on what I presume you are saying are European Tour courses?

It has been noted that some of the PGA tour members, like Scott Hoch and Kenny Perry are reluctant to travel to British shores because the courses are too much like hard work for them.

I don't think "hard work" was the word they used. Scott Hoch doesn't like the food or the golf, and I think Kenny feels the same way.

How often did Colin Montgomerie play non-majors in the U.S.? And a U.S. player going overseas for an event or two is a good bit different than a European player coming to the U.S. to play an event. Right or wrong, most of the majors and WGC events are held in the U.S. So for the U.S. players, it's one event overseas. For the Euros, it's 8-15 events in the U.S.

[BASHERBAKER69]

I can't remember the last time Monty played a normal event in the US?...its been a very long time certainly. In the halcyon days of Greg Norman when he was Number 1, he frequently interchanged between the US tour and the Euro tour and was a truly international player. Tiger is almost like this but he likes to play a few events on the Asian Tour sanctioned by the Euro tour which is good to see.

As i said earlier, the world rankings are very heavily skewed and i don't think that they are a great indicator of strength. Athletes and sports people are money mad nowadays and they will go where the incentives are greatest- so they tend to flock to the PGA tour given the right opportunity. As has already been mentioned, take TW out of the discussion and there is very little to choose between the talents of the two tours. It has been recognised that when Tiger is not playing tv viewings are down- so surely, if we look at the cumulative effect of TWs presence on the PGA tour, if he did not exist, prize money would probably be lower and therefore the PGA tour would not be such a honeypot.

Interestingly, Notah Begay III is playing on the euro tour rather than the PGA tour which is an interesting one. On the subject of Scott Hoch, if he says that it is the food which is stopping him from travelling- that is the crummiest excuse ive ever heard. There is virtually no difference in the food that is provided for him on the two tours!

[iacas]

As i said earlier, the world rankings are very heavily skewed and i don't think that they are a great indicator of strength.

Well, they are what they are, and didn't you previously admit that about 2/3 of the top 50 spend a lot of time in the U.S.? The OWGR can't be so skewed that those top 50 aren't at least reasonably the top 50.

As has already been mentioned, take TW out of the discussion and there is very little to choose between the talents of the two tours.

That's not what I said, and I don't recall reading something like that before. I said including Tiger skews any stat, but since the majority of his starts come in WGCs or majors, that doesn't skew favor towards one Tour or the other. The OWGR in all the other events, including removing Tiger in the other seven or eight he plays, still leans in favor of the PGA Tour I believe.

But look down the OWGR list: Els probably splits his time (though the edge goes to the PGA Tour, I believe), Stricker plays mostly PGA Tour golf. Ogilvy mostly PGA Tour golf. Choi, Rose, Singh, Furyk, Scott play mostly on the PGA Tour. Harrington's close to a split, Sabbatini, Cink, Immelman... a lot of the European players high on the list play the PGA Tour a lot. We've already said the reason why: the money (and thus the competition) is better over here. It is what it is, but that's why I voted "PGA Tour" above. I think the PGA Tour is stronger and I think the numbers back that up.

It has been recognised that when Tiger is not playing tv viewings are down- so surely, if we look at the cumulative effect of TWs presence on the PGA tour, if he did not exist, prize money would probably be lower and therefore the PGA tour would not be such a honeypot.

Indeed, I think that if TW had never come onto the scene, golfers wouldn't earn $1M+ per win. But that's all a hypothetical none of us can really talk about. If memory serves, the PGA Tour was still slightly stronger pre-Tiger as well, but by a much slimmer margin.

Interestingly, Notah Begay III is playing on the euro tour rather than the PGA tour which is an interesting one.

Why is it interesting? He doesn't have exempt status on the PGA Tour. He finished 85th at Q School. All he could do on the PGA Tour is use "past champion" status. And I'd hardly use Notah Begay as an example of "strength."

On the subject of Scott Hoch, if he says that it is the food which is stopping him from travelling- that is the crummiest excuse ive ever heard.

I never said it was just the food.

Let's try to stay on topic. I'm not sure Scott Hoch (now on the Champions Tour) or Notah Begay (no PGA Tour status, no wins since, what, 2001?) are very relevant. I've said my bit and been, hopefully, clear. I've voted. So, I'm done. Carry on.

[BASHERBAKER69]

Perhaps we should have a breakaway tour that only the top 15 players in the world can play in- that could be a good idea. We have something like that already with the world golf tournaments.

[BallStriker]

Shouldn't this actually be "What is the stronger tour top to bottom, the European Tour or the Nationwide Tour?"


PGA Tour is head and shoulders above the Euro Tour -- is that even debatable?

[michaeljames92]

Shouldn't this actually be "What is the stronger tour top to bottom, the European Tour or the Nationwide Tour?"

but then again this question isn't even debatable. european tour is much more stronger than the nationwide tour

[BASHERBAKER69]

Im sorry, but you can't compare the Nationwide to the European Tours- look at who plays on either tour and look at how much they earn.

[michaeljames92]

Im sorry, but you can't compare the Nationwide to the European Tours- look at who plays on either tour and look at how much they earn.

exactly my point

[allin]

I don't think you can even make a decent case that the European Tour is stronger. I do think it is important to recognize that if you took away the European, Australian, and Asian players and other players from around the World it probably wouldn't be. I have noticed a knee jerk reaction by some posters in various threads to take statements the at US tour is stronger to mean depending on place of origin that either USA golfers are better or that people from the USA are arrogant and don't appreciate the talents of non American golfers. The fact is that the money, long schedule and off course opprotunites, plus the chance to play against great competiton with perhaps easier preparation for the majors have drawn more of the worlds best golfers than any other tour.

[Shooter McGavin]

Is this a for real question? PGA Tour. Next.

Perhaps we should have a breakaway tour that only the top 15 players in the world can play in- that could be a good idea. We have something like that already with the world golf tournaments.

Wasn't it Greg Norman who tried to develop something like this a few years ago?

[Ruari]

Of this weekend's two tournaments, the Verizon Heritage definitely has the better field (even without Justin Rose) but I'm not sure it's the case that the run-of-the-mill events are better, either side. But I'll have to look at the numbers and check. Could take a while!

[Klean]

PGA tour definately. It's where the money is at.

[MrKadash]

This must be a trick question. PGA Tour by a landslide. I can't even think of a reason the Euro Tour is better other than some of the beautiful locations (city and country wise) they play. C'mon, they even pay Tiger to come over and give their tour a boost.