TPI Screens

[iacas]

18 hours ago, phillyk said:

Even PGA Tour pros fail some/several of these tests.

…

I also was unable to get my trail forearm in a vertical position when in golf posture. Instead it was parallel with my upper body which is evident in the video above. At a4, my right forearm stays parallel with my spine. If I tried to lower my hands in a way that would get my right forearm more vertical, I would lose posture in the swing (like keeping a towel in the right armpit on the backswing has always been really hard for me, not that I felt I needed to do that).

Almost nobody can externally rotate their shoulders 35°.

That'd be incredible range of motion there.

About TPI in general… I think there's a bit of an "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" going on there. They'll tell you a lot of swing flaws are caused by a lot of limitations in the body, but as you note… plenty of PGA Tour players fail plenty of the tests.

It's good, but nowhere near the bible or template or whatever that many would want you to think.

(Not saying you don't know that, just talking in general. If I wanted to just say it to you directly, I'd DM you. 😄)

[phillyk]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

 

It's good, but nowhere near the bible or template or whatever that many would want you to think.

For me, it’s nice to know whether someone is incapable physically of doing something or they just don’t know they are supposed to do it. Now I have some tools to help distinguish that, and some solutions for both directions.  I have been able to guess well before, but didn’t have solutions. 

Most of my customers are seniors so physical limitations go up a bit. Wasn’t meant to be a bible, just help a bit. 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, phillyk said:

For me, it’s nice to know whether someone is incapable physically of doing something or they just don’t know they are supposed to do it. Now I have some tools to help distinguish that, and some solutions for both directions.  I have been able to guess well before, but didn’t have solutions. 

Okay, so, how do you apply it in a lesson?

Because I don't do any TPI type screens, etc. I think they're a waste of time, and not something people really want to do. Plus, as you noted, Tour players fail some, so…

I will sometimes move people into positions, and note whether they seem to be straining, or I'll ask them "can you do this?" or something. I find that limitations tend to come up naturally in the course of a lesson.

[phillyk]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

Okay, so, how do you apply it in a lesson?

Because I don't do any TPI type screens, etc. I think they're a waste of time, and not something people really want to do.

I am going to do a screen of sorts. Some of the screens have a learning curve, I think. Like pelvic tilt, pelvic rotation, and torso rotation would require some practice with people. They can physically make the movement but don’t quite understand the separation. Once they get it, they get it. The range of motion may be important to see but I think most people have enough range to make a good swing. 

Overhead deep squat, 90/90, lat length, lower quarter rotation, and seated trunk rotation would be good to see. The wrist stuff will be very quick and once again, most people, I assume have good enough range in their wrists to do “proper” movements, so those I may not do. Not going to do anything with toe touch, cervical rotation and bridge with leg extension I think. I do want to do pelvic tilt with everyone but from the standpoint of finding neutral for their setup.

So, basically I want to see range of motion. I’ll shorten the screen to see what I think are important. That could easily change with time. I’m still in a brainstorming period.

The people I have tested, so far, were specific tests in which I expected a specific result. But, in my mind, I want to know certain results before we get started.

[iacas]

I moved it to its own topic so we could talk about it a bit more.

And… there are a lot of ways to do things. I'm going to argue one side here, even though it may not be exactly what I do. 😄

On 1/2/2023 at 12:38 PM, phillyk said:

I am going to do a screen of sorts.

Why? Do you feel that's a valuable use of time? What are you going to do to account for day-to-day or hour-to-hour variability in some of the motions (some days after I play rec soccer my hamstrings might be a bit tighter, or in the morning I feel differently than in the afternoon)?

And to what effect? If PGA Tour players fail tests, and can play at that level, why does it matter too much if someone can only make their trail shoulder go 15° external instead of 35°?

Is that the best use of… five or ten minutes? Are you, having done just the TPI training, well trained enough to really properly assess these types of things?

On 1/2/2023 at 12:38 PM, phillyk said:

The range of motion may be important to see but I think most people have enough range to make a good swing.

I tend to agree, so again… why do screens? Why not do them "in the moment" when/if you notice something maybe being restricted or someone having some trouble with something?

On 1/2/2023 at 12:38 PM, phillyk said:

So, basically I want to see range of motion. I’ll shorten the screen to see what I think are important. That could easily change with time. I’m still in a brainstorming period.

Just trying to foster/help that and play a little devil's advocate (again, maybe even more so than what I typically do).

How long does what you expect to do take?

[Big Lex]

Could you guys explain how Titelist intends that these measurements be used by teachers, or what their alleged purpose is? I ask because there is a teacher in NJ who also measures students. I assume you guys are aware of Mike Adams's "system" ("bio-swing dynamics" or something like that) which uses pseudo-scientific (my opinion...) measurements of limbs, range of motion, etc., to sort people into categories. Each category of player is supposed to be better suited to one of three specific types of "release," with an associated grip style, to suit that release. 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

pseudo-scientific

No, that's the most favorable way of describing it, I think. 😉

5 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

Each category of player is supposed to be better suited to one of three specific types of "release," with an associated grip style, to suit that release. 

I'm not sure I see the tie-in specifically, as TPI's first idea is "oh, you can't dorsiflex your ankles much? Here are ways to train and work on that." Mike Adams can't change the length of your forearm as a percentage of your arm length and/or body height.

A discussion on the Mike Adams stuff would be fine in a topic for it specifically, of course.

[Big Lex]

25 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm not sure I see the tie-in specifically, as TPI's first idea is "oh, you can't dorsiflex your ankles much? Here are ways to train and work on that."

You sort of answered my question I think. I just wondered if there actually _was_ a similarity in why TPI had measurements and how they used them. Adams uses measurements to sort of dictate the swing pattern..."if your arm length is such and such, you'll do better if you grip it this way and move your wrist that way." It sounds like TPI takes measurements more toward ascertaining someone's level of (or to help improve) general golf fitness. 

[iacas]

35 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

You sort of answered my question I think. I just wondered if there actually _was_ a similarity in why TPI had measurements and how they used them. Adams uses measurements to sort of dictate the swing pattern..."if your arm length is such and such, you'll do better if you grip it this way and move your wrist that way." It sounds like TPI takes measurements more toward ascertaining someone's level of (or to help improve) general golf fitness. 

Yeah, that's a reasonably accurate summary, I think.

[Vinsk]

You could ask Jim Venetos. He’s an expert and was deemed to have a ‘biomechanically sound’ technique per TPI. 🙂

[phillyk]

21 hours ago, Vinsk said:

You could ask Jim Venetos. He’s an expert and was deemed to have a ‘biomechanically sound’ technique per TPI. 🙂

Not to you specifically, but TPI said in the beginning of the training that they are not meant to be a swing method or anything.  They simply state certain physical restrictions may have certain outcomes when they swing a club.  The TPI 12 swing characteristics are: sway, slide, hanging back, reverse spine angle, casting, chicken wing, over the top, early extension, S posture, C posture, loss of posture, and flat shoulder plane.  We know that we want to do a couple of these things. The center of pelvis is moving around (sway and slide), the trail leg loses flex (to TPI, that’s a loss of posture), over the top a small amount is not a bad thing, some EE isn’t bad, and these days we promote an almost hanging back effect, with driver only, to hit up with power. 

TPI is about efficiency.  To get that, they want a good range of motion and follow the kinematic sequence. That’s about it.

23 hours ago, Big Lex said:

It sounds like TPI takes measurements more toward ascertaining someone's level of (or to help improve) general golf fitness. 

TPI’s standard is based on PGA Tour players ranges of motion. On the screen sheet, it says this is what a PGA Tour player would be expected to do and what the different ranges under neath are. It’s not just about measuring range of motion, it’s also how well they get to it.  If people have range but are shaking to get there, then there still could be an issue.  

For example, let’s say your shoulders are tight. You may have a limited LAT test, 90/90 test, and overhead deep squat test. TPI would predict some combination of over the top, chicken wing, and loss of posture.  They don’t say these things will happen, it just could.  They also don’t say working solely on shoulder mobility will fix these issues.  For every screen item, it says that a possible cause of a failed test is poor coordination or simply not knowing how to do something.  

That brings us back to this:

On 1/5/2023 at 7:59 AM, iacas said:

why do screens? Why not do them "in the moment" when/if you notice something maybe being restricted or someone having some trouble with something?

Most of my students are seniors. More physical restrictions exist there, so knowing at the beginning what could be a hinderance would be nice. I could screen to see if something is a restriction or they just don’t know how to do a movement pattern. More so, for me, these screens and connected workouts provide good stretches and warmups.

Pelvic tilt, pelvic rotation, torso rotation, and seated trunk rotation are all items that I want to do not just for a physical screen, but for a good stretch and demonstration of proper movement pattern and posture. The main screens I want to do are: Overhead deep squat, 90/90, LAT, lower quarter rotation, wrist flexion/extension, seated trunk rotation, and pelvic rotation.  

Pelvic tilt will be used, more so, to help find neutral for their posture.  Not necessarily a screen, but to help them understand where neutral is for their body. Torso rotation is good to help people understand the separation of lower and upper body, along with pelvic rotation.  But pelvic rotation is important to see the range of rotation.  

TPI suggests doing all 16 screens, and they say it takes only 7min to do that.  I’ll likely do a max of 10 of those, so 5min or less.  We do want to screen somewhat regularly to see how things change.  Is it day to day, based on workouts/stretches, based on learning proper swing mechanics, etc.

I don’t plan to do the full screen for everyone.  I do have specific classes planned that are TPI focused, so those will have screens. Senior golfers I’ll probably screen, but everyone else will be more as needed.  I feel I’m going to use TPI more for the workouts and stretches, than for the actual screen itself. Each workout/stretch I can connect to specific patterns in the swing.