Swing or Hit?

[Sclaffer]

I have reviewed the entire Swing Thoughts forum and this question has been answered many times in many ways.

I am posting to seek help in clearing my own thoughts.

Hogan says for the average golfer to "keep any conscious hand action out of his swing". 6 pages later he also says "Hit the ball as hard as you can with both hands".  This appears to be a contradiction.

My drives are respectable (I can find them) when I focus on swinging with loose wrists. If I try to "hit" the ball it all turns to doo doo. Strangely, I can "hit" a 7 iron - and it is more satisfying than just swinging at it! I have been told that my swing is fast.

Advice please

[iacas]

Feels are personal. Some people will feel like it's a hit, some will feel like it's a swing. Some will feel like it's one and then have other swings, even in the same round, that feel like the other.

"Swing" and "hit" are feel words.

[ChetlovesMer]

1 hour ago, Sclaffer said:

I have reviewed the entire Swing Thoughts forum and this question has been answered many times in many ways.

I am posting to seek help in clearing my own thoughts.

Hogan says for the average golfer to "keep any conscious hand action out of his swing". 6 pages later he also says "Hit the ball as hard as you can with both hands".  This appears to be a contradiction.

My drives are respectable (I can find them) when I focus on swinging with loose wrists. If I try to "hit" the ball it all turns to doo doo. Strangely, I can "hit" a 7 iron - and it is more satisfying than just swinging at it! I have been told that my swing is fast.

Advice please

I'd like to offer advice, but I'm not sure what you are asking.

You made several statements, but none of them seem problematic. 

Sounds like you like to keep your wrists loose when hitting a driver. You like to hit your 7 iron. Somebody said your swing is fast. Are you asking for help in clarifying what Hogan said? 

I'm not trying to be jerk-like. I am not sure what you want advice on. 
 

 

[HitemHard]

I'm a big Hogan fan. I've read and re-read five lessons dozens of times. Given away a dozen or more copies of the book as well. I've always felt the best way to figure out what you can't quite understand is to take another bit of his advice; dig it out of the dirt. Go out to the range and say to yourself, how can I hit hard with both hands and not think about my hands at all? You may find that what I describe for me in my swing may be different from how you describe it in yours yet we both can be correct. That's where "feel" comes in. My "feel" is connected to a certain number of triggers or positions where yours may be different.

So in my mind... my interpretation of Hogan's instruction is this: You must understand the manner in which your hands, wrists and forearms need to move through impact. By knowing how they need to move through impact you can put them in the correct position at the top of the backswing that will allow them to move that way naturally in the quarter of a second that is the downswing...without trying to think about what position they are in.  Now to "hit hard with both hands"...again, my interpretation...is less about the hands and more about activating the muscles of both arms. You can imagine that you could let the rotation of the body simply pull your left arm down while your right arm uses all it's muscles to "throw" the angles out into the ball, can't you? Conversely, you can imagine pulling hard with your left arm down towards the ball and let your right arm straighten out kind of by itself, right? I think what it felt like to Hogan was that he was doing both. I know different people that feel one of these three things in their swing. Each will swear that their way is correct and the other ways will wreck your swing. I knew one guy that used to feel like he pulled through with his left if he wanted a fade but threw hard with his right if he wanted a draw. That's why it's so hard to give general instruction. What works for you may not work for someone else. What's correct? What feels correct in your swing is what is correct for you. If it produces the repeatable shot shape that you want then it works with the rest of your swing. Change some other part of your swing and you may have to tweak the feels. I hope this makes sense and helps in some way.

 

[Sclaffer]

Thank you for the replies. 

On reflection, I need to go away and work on proprioception.

For example, I have never had any idea where the club head is. I go for a lesson, the pro identifies a fault and we fix it. Because I do not feel  the difference between the fixed swing and the old swing, I write down what we worked on. However, without any feel or muscle memory of what constitutes a good swing, it is a lottery whether my next round will be good or bad.

I contrast myself with my brother in law; who’s swing is truly ugly. He was a cricketer and has great  proprioception, so he is consistent and straight.

I just found Andrew Emery video on golf proprioception. Any views on his teaching?

Regards

[saevel25]

On 1/17/2025 at 1:59 PM, Sclaffer said:

Because I do not feel the difference between the fixed swing and the old swing, I write down what we worked on. However, without any feel or muscle memory of what constitutes a good swing, it is a lottery whether my next round will be good or bad.

Most feels need to be extreme. 

Example, I have to feel like my hands go down towards my right ankle or right hip pocket from the top of the backswing. I HATE IT! But the club gets on plane in the downswing. It is stupid difficult for me to do because of my old patterns. So, I may need to SLOW it down to be able to do it. 

You have spent years ingraining movements that feel natural. So, if you are feeling a golf swing that feels normal, you are 99% likely using the old swing. It sucks, but you will need to make things uncomfortable till they become comfortable. 

I can't find the video, but Tiger mentioned once, and I am getting the general of the quote not exact, but the feel of like 2-3 FT of clubhead position in the backswing is like 3" of real position change. There are videos of him exaggerating movements, and when he takes a normal swing, it is nothing like what he is exaggerating. 

On 1/17/2025 at 1:59 PM, Sclaffer said:

I contrast myself with my brother in law; who’s swing is truly ugly. He was a cricketer and has great  proprioception, so he is consistent and straight.

 

That isn't him making swing changes. That his him just being able to time up path to clubface more consistently. 

At a certain point we should be able to move the body without needing to look at the body part moving. This is why training with mirrors can be a double edge sword. It is great to be able to see where the club is at, but in reality, you are not training your body to do that without looking at it. Sometimes you need that initial feedback to get things started. 

[p1n9183]

All of my life I been a feel player. I always swung with my arms and hands. Never been consistent but it lead me to a respectable index around 1.
Since I started to have more rotation in my swing and feeling that I'm hitting the ball with my right shoulder I kind of get a little bit more consistent with my longer clubs.

At least for me it always felt like hitting, I've never been able to feel that I'm swinging and the ball is getting in the way. 

[iacas]

43 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

All of my life I been a feel player. I always swung with my arms and hands.

That's really not what a "feel player" is. People who rotate as you're learning to do are also "feel players."

You may call yourself a "handsy" player. Maybe that's more accurate.

But everyone is a feel player.

[GolfLug]

To OP, in completely anecdotal and unscientific terms if you shove/push/thrust a club onto the ball then it's more of a hit and if you have to work to keep it from flying away from you then you prolly swinging it.. haha. 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

But everyone is a feel player.

Naw, really? Isn't it the guy who take 13 practice swings till he feels the right 'whoosh' and only then he steps up to the ball? 😜

Okay jokes aside, I think the truth is a golf 'swing' is prolly at best a combo and as @iacas said, what we feel can change even within a round. I think a lot about my mechanics but have put very little thought in trying to classify it as a swing or a hit. FWIW, not sure how useful it is.