Not in the spirit of the game!

[AmenCorner]

While I agree that they possibly should not have been playing, remember that you had that handicap once, and someone probably had to take the time to wait for you aswell. Handicaps serve a very valid purpose, to let everyone get some enjoyment out of the game. Without handicaps, the scratch player would almost always win, giving no one else any enjoyment or the excitement of potentially winning a tournament if they have a fantastic round.

This was my initial reaction as well. What if he was the 10 year old playing with an adult who resentful of his participation? He might not want to play again. This is not the impression we should be giving the young ones. Patience is one of golf's greatest virtues, no?

[AmenCorner]

Nope, not that I can think of. It doesn't sound like the sort of thing you would do in a tournament, though.

Bowling has a handicap system.

[glebert]

Bowling has a handicap system.

I stand corrected. I still have no intention to establish a handicap (in golf or bowling), though, if that is ok with you guys.

[jamesbei]

This is getting a bit out of controll, i know there should be a handicap system, but

how would you feel if you turned up for your Club match and were playing against two 28 handicappers, giving them 19 shots each, and more often than not one of them manages to get a par or bogey with a shot.

[wolverine318]

The handicap system is not perfect and we call get into situations at one time or another that benefits us or benefits our opponents becaue of it. You have to play and shoot your score and go with it. You cant have the attitude of "babysitting" the 10 year old. While its competition I think it would be not in the spirit of the game to take this attitude with him, or anybody for that matter. Enjoy the game, encourage others to play. Play your competition within the rules. Be a gentlemen about it.

I get what glebert is saying. Golf is a bit different from other sports though. I think its great that we play and love a game that can bring anyone from any ability level together. I can play with my 13 year old nephew and we can compete and I wont blow him away every time.

It brings the 50 other guys I play in my league with together and makes for some great competition and match play instead of havnig the same 3 or 4 guys win every time.

[glebert]

"So, what's you handicap?"

"Oh, I don't keep a handicap."

"Really? How do you measure yourself against other golfers?"

"By height."


Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Fourputt]

i dont mind giving a few strokes away, but i dont like giving both people 19 shots each.

I played a match a couple of years ago where I had to give my opponent 29 strokes. Wait until you have to give 2 strokes on more than half of the holes (I had to give 2 on 11 holes and one on the remaining 7)... then you will know what real pressure is.

[hawkeye]

Speaking of babysitting, you wouldn't want to play against the McGuire twins of Ireland - they're 13 and they're 2 of the best female amateurs in the country! Curtis Cup in 2 year - watch out!

Oh and they'd be giving you shots. 7 or 8.

[MrSandman]

Frankly I've never understood the point of handicaps. I've never broken 90, but if I were to play in a tournament I would not accept any strokes. If someone is better than me and gets a better score, they win. If they play lousy and I have a great day maybe I win.

When I was younger, I would have agreed with you.

Now that I'm older, I understand that people work for a living, and you cannot play every day. Handicaps make friendly matches more fun. In my regular 4some, we have a friend who is just picking up the game (29 handicap), a friend who does nothing but play golf (4 handicap), a somewhat experienced player (14 handicap) and me, a guy who used to do nothing but play but now I have a full time job (10 handicap). But we can mix the teams around on bestball and have some good, competative matches. I don't like the idea of big money matches using strokes, at least not 100% of handicap. If somebody wants to play me for big money, he's not getting more than 75%. I'm not going to shoot an 80 and lose $500 to a guy who shot a 92 because he has a 23 handicap.

[MrSandman]

Without handicaps, the scratch player would almost always win, giving no one else any enjoyment or the excitement of potentially winning a tournament if they have a fantastic round.

Here is the problem though:

It is a lot easier for a 23 handicap to shoot well under their average than a 2 handicap to do so. 23 handicap on a 73 rated course (should shoot around 96) could very easily go out and shoot an 86 or 88 in a given day (yes, 20'ish handicaps do break 90). That is 8-10 strokes under their handicap. How often is a 2 handicap going to shoot a 65? 68? If a 2 handicap shoots 3 strokes under their handicap+ course rating, that is a great round. A 23 handicap will frequently shoot 5+ strokes under their handicap+ course rating. I'm a 9 handicap. If I shoot 6 over par, that is a fantastic round for me (only 3 better than my handicap). If I am 4 over par for the round, that will be among the best rounds of the year for me (only 5 better than my handicap). However, a 23 handicap just has to break 90 on a par 72 (something they will do more than a couple times) and they have bested my top round of the year. Same works as you get lower. I was a 12 handicap recently, but would shoot a round 8 or 9 over par (3 or 4 better than my cap), while playing with a friend who was a 2 handicap. He would have to shoot under par (something he has done only a couple times) just to match a good round by me (good round, not career best, as his round would be).

[wolverine318]

I agree with MrSandman.

Also if we throw out handicaps we should throw out all of the different Tee boxes and just have one? Just a thought, not saying i want to or dont want to do this.

[MrSandman]

Disadvantage in terms of what? Sure you have to score lower per hole to win, but both you and the higher handicap players have to score equally low in comparison to the standard they are expected to play at (ie their handicap) to win. I hope that makes sense.

This is exactly the misconception I am referring to in my last post.

- A 2 handicap going 3 under is a career best round, they probably have not done that often, they might not do it for another year or two. - A 25 handicap going 20 over is just a nice saturday afternoon, they probably have done it in the past couple weeks, they will probably do it again in the next couple weeks. One more addition to my rant: If you are playing match play, 100% handicap doesn't always work. Here is why: - 18 handicap is likely to shoot 19 over par (estimate) (90). - scratch golfer should be about even (72). - Scratch gives 18 handicap a stroke a hole. --- 18 handicap triples a hole that scratch player birdies (say par 4). 4 of the 18 stroke difference results on 1 up for 1 hole. --- If the 18 handicap goes on to shoot 90, and scratch golfer goes on to shoot 72, there is no way that the scratch player would win that match giving a stroke a hole. The Scratch player has used 69 strokes for the remaining 17 holes, while the 18 handicapper uses 83 for the remaining 17 holes. -------- Difference of only 14 strokes, while giving 17 strokes (1 per hole), the scratch will have to play well to only be 2 down at the end of the match. In stroke play, this would be fine. The triple/birdie exchange would be reflected in the total score. But in match play, going 100% handicap gives the higher handicap a major advantage (especially as the handicap differential becomes greater).

[JimmyDoesGolf]

What makes you say that? If they are fairly often scoring and their HC is 25 then it should be lowered. Otherwise they are sandbagging which is a different issue entirely.

If you are someone who has a HC of 25, and plays to 25 and doesnt seem to be improving then shooting 20 isnt just a nice saturday afternoon.

[MrSandman]

What makes you say that? If they are fairly often scoring and their HC is 25 then it should be lowered. Otherwise they are sandbagging which is a different issue entirely.

There is a lot greater deviation for a high handicap than a lower handicap.

A 2 handicap is likely going to be in the 73-78 range for 90% of their rounds, rarely, if ever, breaking 70. A 25 handicap is going to be all over the board, from 90-110, and even throwing out the occassional round in the 80's during the summer. It is certainly much more likely, and much more frequent, for a 25 handicap to shoot 5 under their handicap than it is for a 2 or 3 handicap. There is no doubt about that. And it does not mean they are sandbagging. I worked in a pro shop for half a decade. We would have one day weekend tournaments every Sat & Sun. 90% of the time, the net winner would come from an 18+ handicap who had a pretty good round. I cannot remember ever recording a single digit handicap as the net winner (we also had a gross division for them). A great round for a 2 handicapper would be a 70 or 69 (only 4 or 5 under their cap on a par 72). 20+ handicaps go 5 under their cap frequently. Not consistently, and their scores can be all over the board, but it is a lot more common for a 23 handicap to break 90 than 3 handicap to break 70.

[MrSandman]

JimmyDoesGolf,

What are your 5 best rounds (how many over par)?

[JimmyDoesGolf]

If I'm honest I couldnt tell you. I can't remember. My lowest I believe was 110. My handicap is 28 purely because of the system used by our golf club. I've only been playing 5 months.

[JerseyThursday]

There is a lot greater deviation for a high handicap than a lower handicap.

I totally agree handicap should be adjusted in head-to-head match play (75% sounds good to me). Most high handicappers are victims of the “blow-up hole(s)”. The rest of the round they hover around bogey. In that scenario they win against the low handicap player every time.

My favorite tournaments are stroke play were the prize (or whatever) is split evenly between the gross and net score of the day.

[MrSandman]

Jimmy, read my post #32 in this thread, it explains what jerseythursday is talking about with the blowup hole and why the 100% handicap system does not work well for match play between players with a large handicap discrepency. That is why most leagues that use handicaps will only use 75-80% handicap for match play.

Also, in my first post in this thread, I defend the handicap system and say it really makes rounds among friends more entertaining.