Rules Officials and Slow Play on the PGA Tour

[iacas]

Maybe if they didn't get DQ as soon as they did something wrong, or have TV viewers phone up and complain

the thing about this is, you have people calling in and reporting the most minor, insignificant rule breaches that they see on TV.

OK, I'm calling bullshit on that whole gag. The last time I heard of that happening was at least six years ago, perhaps more.

And they are playing for literally millions of dollars.

Again, the amount of money up for grabs does not change the Rules of Golf, nor the written SPIRIT of the game. The simple rules are not that hard to understand.

I honestly think the solution to this problem is to relax the rules a bit.

Oh brother. I'm not even touching that can of worms.

[Cleveland Gunmetal]

As I

Both. I'm not sure the 5 rulings per year or one every 5 events works (it might though) but there should be a list of "standard" type of rulings that players are expected to do themselves and officials do not help with. Water hazards would be one of those for sure. Also what happened to consulting with your playing partner? All this standing around waiting for a rules official to arrive on the scene is silly.

Quite frankly I'm also sick of players calling in an official for anything slightly out of the ordinary. Actually it's not just bizarre situations. It's any situation where a ball has to be moved or dropped. When did this become the norm? I don't recall it being like this all the time but somewhere along the line it certainly changed. Perhaps it's the higher purses or probably more likely, the younger generation player simply not knowing the rules. It's even gotten to the point where players sometimes call in an official because they have a bad lie and are looking for a reason to get a drop. What was Goggin doing at the Memorial when he was way out of position on that par 3 (sorry forget what hole exactly)? Announcers made it sound like he thought there was a sprinkler head or something there, which apparently there was not. It took them forever to determine he had to just hit it were it was. C'mon, you hit a shitty shot and now have a shitty lie. Hit it. Officials need to get faster as well.

OK, I'm calling bullshit on that whole gag. The last time I heard of that happening was at least six years ago, perhaps more.

I think it happens far more frequently than that but I can't recall the last time someone called in and the penalty was actually

enforced . Players, in most cases, are quick to call the infraction on themselves.

[BSweet]

J.B. Holmes plays the slowest.
Remember kids...study long, study wrong.

However, I disagree with the whole ruling thing. In a game where strokes mean thousands of dollars. I would want the right call instead of risking a DQ or strokes.

[wolverine318]

Be fair: when's the last time you heard of that happening? Used to happen all the time. Now it does not - or you don't hear about it, anyway.

1991 duh

I dont remember watching golf on TV very much from 10 years ago so I dont know how much viewers called in back then, but I'll take your word for it, happened all the time. Maybe them, the players, are calling officials more now though than in teh past and this is part of the reason why you dont see tv viewers calling in? 100% pure speculation, just throwing it out there. What I do think is that they need to figure out a way and go with it. Either have the rules official there at every hole, or none at all. Maybe thats a little extreme, but I agree the players and caddies should know the rules. Basically I think they need to set a define line and go with it. Anyways, found this article http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=2193534 This is why we have players calling on officials for easy rules. Because since a lot of them and a lot of situations are based on interpretations and guesses, they get DQd for it. Think about it, player A hooks one into a lateral hazard on the left. Talks with player B, they agree it went in around Tree 1. Player A drops and hits. Later someone, tv viewer, patron, whoever says no it went in by tree 2, farther back. So what now Player A is either 2 shot penalty, or if he is done and signed he is DQ'd. Or how about he drops two clubs 90 deg angle from the trees, but that angle happens to be closer, he should have dropped at a lesser of an angle? Where does it end? They are not "cheating" they are interpreting the rules to the best of their abilities. They cant 100% measure or know where they ball exactly went out. It sounds stupid and it is but these are things they are calling officials for. Can yo imagine if we did this in our rounds. We would be there all day.

[Catul]

OK, I'm calling bullshit on that whole gag. The last time I heard of that happening was at least six years ago, perhaps more.

FWIW, not quite a TV viewer calling it in, but here's one where

Wie was disqualified less than three years ago. Interesting stuff ...

[iacas]

Think about it, player A hooks one into a lateral hazard on the left. Talks with player B, they agree it went in around Tree 1. Player A drops and hits. Later someone, tv viewer, patron, whoever says no it went in by tree 2, farther back. So what now Player A is either 2 shot penalty, or if he is done and signed he is DQ'd.

No, he wouldn't be. The rules officials/committee would go with what the player and the playing partner(s) agreed to, unless there was STRONG evidence that they collaborated in order to cheat (i.e. knowingly and purposefully cheated). They also have marshals, etc. to help and to give opinions.

They would not be DQed or given more penalty strokes. That's not right at all.

Or how about he drops two clubs 90 deg angle from the trees, but that angle happens to be closer, he should have dropped at a lesser of an angle? Where does it end?

How about he just knows the rules and drops "no closer to the hole"? That's not exactly a difficult phrase to understand.

They cant 100% measure or know where they ball exactly went out.

Nor can or would they be penalized if they guessed to the best of their abilities.

Can yo imagine if we did this in our rounds. We would be there all day.

Unfortunately, the FANS have to sit and watch them call over officials for the stupidest of rulings. That's why I started this thread.

FWIW, not quite a TV viewer calling it in

Exactly: not a TV viewer. A reporter choosing to make himself part of the story. And Wie's playing partners didn't say anything either: I think it was a bad DQ. And it still wasn't a TV viewer that called in.

[martin00015]

Maybe I can add something here from a tour rule official's point of view...

Most players know the rules basics pretty well, but often are unclear on the minutiae or unusual scenarios where a knowledge of the decisions book would be required. They tend to call an official even for the straighforward rulings because they know they will be exempt from any penalty if the procedure turns out wrong (ref decs 34-2/2 and 34-3/1.5). And don't forget, RO's can make mistakes too.

Usually, there aren't enough ROs to have one on every hole, or one per group. Obviously, sufficient numbers are made available to do this for majors, but run of the mill events would typically allocate something like one guy per three or four holes plus a couple of roving officials under the direction of the TD.

Shifts? afraid not. ROs are out there all day apart from a couple of necessary comfort breaks. Also, we go out before the first tee-offs to make sure there's no unexpected problems (course damage, missing flags etc) so the suggested 10 hrs isn't far wrong. We eat breakfast and lunch sat on the cart.

23 rulings a day? I wish. That's more like the total number for all the officials in a day. More like half a dozen or so is closer to the mark. I once had a day where the only question I was asked was where's the nearest portable toilet!

[iacas]

23 rulings a day? I wish. That's more like the total number for all the officials in a day.

That's what I said, yeah: I didn't mean 23 rulings per official. I meant 23 rulings per day (for all officials and, thus, all players).

And since you're a rules official, what's your feel? Do you think they're taking advantage of the decisions you quoted that puts any and all blame on the RO, and do you think they generally don't know the rules very well at all, or what? Should they call for less rulings? Do you get called for a lot of "confirmation only" type rulings or do they generally not know?

[martin00015]

And since you're a rules official, what's your feel? Do you think they're taking advantage of the decisions you quoted that puts any and all blame on the RO, and do you think they generally don't know the rules very well at all, or what? Should they call for less rulings? Do you get called for a lot of "confirmation only" type rulings or do they generally not know?

I wouldn't call it taking advantage but it's a kind of security blanket, I suppose. Yes, there are a few confirmation request - "I can do this, right?" and often you'd get "I'm declaring this unplayable. What are my options?"

Rules knowledge varies, but no-one is clueless. Most of the ones I have experience with know the basics well when there's not much 'judgement' required - water hazards, unplayable, lost. But I'd expect a call for, say, casual water almost every time. I feel that there is not an excessive amount of rulings called for. Personally, I wouldn't want fewer rulings. More rulings are fun! We spend more time checking the timing sheets than the rules book. Sometimes you get a simple question that makes you stop and think for a moment, so you wouldn't expect the player to know. Just for the fun of it, here's a real-life example for you rules fans to try out: A player has hit his tee shot right of the fairway into a small group of trees. Inside these trees a pile of earth has been dumped, covering many square yards and about two feet high at the highest point. Obviously it was left quite some time ago and clearly there's no plan to remove it. The player calls you over. The ball has finished just clear of the pile. It rests close by a clump of earth that has detached from the pile. To play the ball out, his stance will have to be on the pile of earth. You've left your decisions book back at the cart; there's a small group of spectators gathered round waiting on your wisdom. Player points to clump of earth and says "Can I move this?" You have tens seconds to answer the question before you look a complete fool...

[Harold]

Assuming you are the Authorized Representative you can delare it an Abnormal Ground Condition (Ground under repair). Player gets to lift, clean, and drop 1 club length from the nearest point of relief free of the Condition with no penalty. Sounds a bit like the drop Ernie Els got a few years ago at the Masters.

[Harold]

I forgot to add if I hit the same shot into said dirt pile and it's not clearly marked as an Abnormal Ground Condition (AGC) ie Ground Under Repair (GUR) I'm Shit Out of Luck (SOL). I have to play it from where it lies with the risks entailed or declare it Unplayable and go from there. Where _MY_ Authorized Representative (AR) when I need him/her?

[martin00015]

Assuming you are the Authorized Representative you can delare it an Abnormal Ground Condition (Ground under repair).

Material was not piled for removal. It is not GUR.