Master "Forged vs. Cast" or "Blade vs. Game-Improvement" Iron Thread

[i-Guy]

I have not read through the entire thread and I hope my reply is not redundant but here goes...I think the differences are as follows:

1) What club do you set up to the best (address position) ...cavity back versus blade should not matter. I really think this has nothing to do with cavity back versus blade but has to do more with offset and visually how you see the club at address which affects your set up...

2) Do you consistently strike the ball on the center or toward the heel? If yes then...cavity back versus blade should not matter. (Note: if you tend to strike the ball toward the toe then you will probably get better results from the cavity back because of the higher MOI)

3) Do you want to work the ball consistently (left to right or right to left)? If yes then a blade will aid you in this but #2 above has to be yes. However, if you want to hit the ball pretty much straight then either will work and you will probably get more forgiveness from the cavity back because of the higher MOI (strikes toward the toe).

Just my 2 cents...

[tjy355]

Since this thread was started in MARCH 2007 , ya think the OP might have already chosen his new clubs and we can stop offering him our advice now ??

[nutsnbolts]

Out of curiosity, this is just a pondering question.

I have always had the mindset (in any hobby, sport, etc.) to get the best out there.

Now, before we start defining best..what I mean is best in regards to getting the best bang for your buck, yet, provide you endurance in the long run.

For example. Muscleback vs. Cavityback vs. Blades

I would suggest to anyone, that they should purchase a Cavity back. You get the best of both worlds (a forgiving club) but also when you improve a bit more, give you the capability to do more with it.

Makes sense?

So....

The question now is..

Do you purchase equipment that fits you, in other words, spend money on "lesser" items which inevitably will be replaced or do you say, improvement of thyself will allow me to maximize the use of my equipment, so purchase this (usually more expensive item) now.

I know that there can be many options and considerations to take. Such as if you buy something cheaper, you can progress your way up to it but that means waste more money or get accustomed to wrong techniques, etc.

[Eeryck]

For me, I prefer to have equipment that is above my ability or of a higher quality than I can currently appreciate for any thing that I am committed to. The few times I bought something budget, in golf or otherwise, I have regretted having to spend more money to get something I like later.

I don't mind taking the lumps that come with this method.

I equate it to learning to like good Scotch. You could drink some cheap whisky, then decent whisky, then a blended scotch, then cheaper single malts, then expensive single malts as you develop your pallet. However, you would suffer through a lot of garbage till you got something worthwhile all because you were not sure if you could develop the pallet for it. If you just skip to the single malts in a moderate price range and know that you should like it cause it is higher quality in the end you would be much happier. (Or at least I was!)

When learning to play golf, there is a good chance you will be terrible no matter what type of equipment you have. I see no reason to try and buy something that makes you supposedly less terrible with less feedback for you to improve only so you can go out and do something at a mediocre level. Committment, practice and determination make a golf swing and a golfer, if you want to just go out and socialize, take a walk in the park and skip the ball and clubs, but this won't make the club companies any money.

-E

[nutsnbolts]

For me, I prefer to have equipment that is above my ability or of a higher quality than I can currently appreciate for any thing that I am committed to. The few times I bought something budget, in golf or otherwise, I have regretted having to spend more money to get something I like later.

Yes, I agree with this as well. Of course, I also don't do mindless spendings, despite whether I can afford to or not.

Ironically, most people tend to advise to spend little at first then grow to spending more. In my opinion, the amount you spend little first could be the other half of the bigger prize, so I rather pool that "money" to the gear/equipment that is indeed above my ability. Caveat, I don't agree suggesting to someone on getting bladed? irons. It doesn't 'make sense because it's too far advanced in the beginning. Could you learn from these iron? Most probably but then i think it's a matter of time over money or was it money over time?

[LottaBalata]

I definitely think that you can use equipment that's "out of your league". To Eeryck. . .did you ever think that if you were fitted for clubs that work well with you, your h-cap might lower? Personally, I wanted Mizunos a couple years ago, very bad. REALLY wanted a set of nice Mizuno blades. So I started demoing and demoing. . .etc, etc. COULD NOT HIT ANY OF THEM. Didn't matter what I wanted, I simply couldn't work the clubs. Now looking back, I think they were simply too heavy and I couldn't control them.

Then I had a set of CER irons from golfsmiths or golfworks, with SK Tour Perf. shafts--very light. I hit them well, I've learned to work them a little from both sides, depending on how well I'm hitting the ball that day.

I don't think it would be a good idea just to go out and buy a set of AP1's and assume you're going to hit them like you would a forgiving set like the Adams AO3's or the new Big Berthas. . .

Whatever you choose, DEMO.

And if you're over a 20 h-cap, a couple lessons would be the best money spent I think.

[jmoc]

I've played less than 10 years and have gone back and forth between game improvement, super game improvement and traditional irons. The question you ask is, in essence, the question that taunted me. I could work the ball either way, driver, woods, irons. I would just go through spells of great play and horrible play. About 4 years ago decided to change my swing and build a more traditional repeatable swing that would, theoretically, be less prone to the day I'm off my timing or under the weather. I play 2 to 3 times a week and even at that, I could not make the change and I got worse. After about 3 and a half years I had to make a decision, did I want to enjoy the game and watch my ball sail towards the green or split the fairway, or, did I want to be a single digit handicapper? Love or Money?
I've said all that to say this, You should buy equipment to suit the game your after. If you play once a month and don't have time to apply yourself, get the most forgiving clubs that appeal to your eye. If your a "player" that just hasn't shot under 100 yet, buy the blades and start diggin' it out of the dirt. If you're somewhere inbetween, buy whatever fits your eye and see what happens. In all honesty, I can work a Ping i10 or an Adams Tech OS, It's just the more forgiving an iron, the more you have to exaggerate the technique. Only you can determine what makes the game fun for you, follow your dream, and if your wrong, buy a new set of clubs. There is an old phrase that says the only regrets most people have are the things they never did/tried. That's my 2 cents.... jmoc

[Eeryck]

To Eeryck. . .did you ever think that if you were fitted for clubs that work well with you, your h-cap might lower?

I absolutely believe in club fitting and my clubs have been fit to me, though it has not directly helped my handicap, it is not a further hinderance. My lack of experience and late start in golf are what most contribute to my high hcp.

And if you're over a 20 h-cap, a couple lessons would be the best money spent I think.

I could not agree more with this point. This was my first year golfing and my stubborn nature wanted to see what I could do on my own. Also, I was suprisingly cheap here even though I was willing to pay for equipment.

Next year I have already set up with a pro to get things in better order. I realize now after this year that I would have been better off seeing a pro from the start. Hindsight is 20/20. However, I would not have the experience that I have this year from my mistakes. I expect to see quite a bit of improvement for myself in 2009 with a bit of professional direction. -E

[firstcut]

I say this. Get the best gear for *you* at the cheapest possible price. For example, I got back into the game with a set of used Ping Eye 2's. The problem is, in golf, you don't really know what's going to fit you until you've played a while and gained some experience. And even then, your game is going to change and your equipment will change with it.

And, unless you get custom made clubs, you have the added benefit of *knowing* that you are not buying what the label says you are buying. So, chances are good you're going to keep experimenting anyway.

I can tell you every club I've owned and *each* one has told me something about my game that's helped get me to where I am today. It's been an expensive ride and I don't think it's going to get cheaper anytime soon.

[nutsnbolts]

I guess I should relate as well here based on my pondering question of this post.

I have done several activities in my life, and have always had the mindset that I have mentioned above. Buy a good set (in-between set) that will hold you off for a few that are usually above your skill level, despite the cost. Of course, don’t go crazy. There is a market for everything where there is a low, mid, and high range.

I have seen this trend from any sport or activity I have done. From bowling, paintballing, photography, and now golfing, whether you are getting a fitted bowling ball, purchasing an electric marker (paintball gun) that shoots 20? Balls per second, buying a top of the line camera that has better controls or even buying the Callaways, Burners, etc, having good equipment to start, puts up a few steps ahead.

Of course, as one of the posters mentioned, if you are just doing this once a month, etc. then I wouldn’t spend more than the mid-grade premium. I have only started golfing in July and my best score on the range has been 91. I’m averaging in the 90-95 and it’s all accounted for good equipment, lots of research and videos and a couple instructors.

I didn’t want to have any bad habits creeping in from the start. I need to learn it the right way, the correct way from the start and that means ensuring I have the right equipment on hand. I have not been fitted yet, but that is one thing that definitely can wait.

[cigarnut81]

Out of curiosity, this is just a pondering question.

The best clubs out there will always be the clubs that fit your golf swing. There is nothing inferior about the component golf industry. Their clubs are manufactured in the same foundries in china as all of the top brands. Custom built and fit golf equipment is the route to improvement. There is a small allowance for those players who have not yet learned to get the ball in the air consistently. All golfers should play with custom built and fit golf clubs regardless of handicap or the social status of your bag. I promise that when you start whipping your buddies they will wonder how they can get those clubs in there bag as well. When you step on the first tee with golf equipment that fits you the advantage is yours! We play this game for score and the big names in the business have not brought your scores down have they. Time for a change go see your local custom club maker.

[i-Guy]

Okay here is my view of the question at hand:

First a few facts…I am a 9 handicap…my strengths are my short game and my athletic ability (hand / eye coordination)…which means if my timing is on (golf swing) I can shoot in the 70’s but if it is off I can struggle and even dip into the 90’s here and there with penalty strokes…my avg scores are in the low 80’s

I aspire for my avg scores to be in the low 70’s or better and I want to play competitive golf like FSGA, USGA and local amateur events…so I started looking for a coach that could take me to that level and communicated this on the front end…well I worked with someone for about 6 months last year and nothing really changed…so I made another change and my recent coach I believe is the one that can truly help me as we have been working together since the beginning of September and I am starting to make swings that are solid and do not require my timing to hit good shots which is what he said we want to accomplish.

With all that said and related to this thread…one very important thing I have learned from my coach early on was how important set up (he calls them relationships) is to being able to having a chance to make the proper golf swing…he also has proven to me that everyone is different in how they set up and how their eye sees the set up. He also explained to me that the reason most low handicappers play a blade type iron (talking about offset, hosel design, etc..) is for this reason…so they can achieve the proper set up position to be able to have a chance at executing the proper golf swing…he proved to me that clubs with offset (game improvement and super game improvement) irons are designed for golfers who do not achieve the proper set up relationships (even at the Pro level) and therefore need help squaring the club face…when in fact a low handicapper would struggle hitting these clubs consistently because of how they may set up to them…make sense?

Maybe not but I was playing Ping I10’s went I went to him and struggled hitting these clubs consistency and really struggled getting into the proper set up relationships that we were looking for on a regular basis…so we started experimenting with different clubs and as you can see in my signature I now play blades ZM ’s basically because I set up much better with these clubs then any others…

So the bottom line to this LONG post is that I think it depends on what you are trying to achieve to what clubs you buy and what you spend as follows:

1) High Handicapper (having fun playing once in a while) – buy super game improvement irons

2) Mid-handicapper – want to shoot in the 80’s and 90’s consistently – buy game improvement irons or possibly a player iron with forgiveness (Ping I10’s)

3) Low handicapper – buy what iron you set up with the best (help from a coach) whether it be a pure blade (Ex; Titleist ZM) or a quality players iron (Ex; Titleist AP2 or Ping S57)

Hope this helps…

[LottaBalata]

I absolutely believe in club fitting and my clubs have been fit to me, though it has not directly helped my handicap, it is not a further hinderance. My lack of experience and late start in golf are what most contribute to my high hcp.

Excellent. . .glad you understood what I was saying and didn't get p'd, lol. I was just thinking that it may be more economical to get clubs that suit you, but you obviously know that!

[golfmonke]

Hmmmm, I don't think you can simply say muscleback vs "Cavity Back".

There are so many different types of Cavity Backs.

For instance I could never play a super game improvement cavity back iron, because I hit them so high and they balloon beyond belief on me.

**Muscleback vs Super Game Improvement Cavity Back , winner == Muscleback.

Now let's look at regular game improvement irons, these also launch high for me, but not quite as high, they are playable.

For me this is a tough one, I think my handicap would be better served by playing the game improvement cavity backs, although i'd suffer through the windy days.

**Muscleback vs Game Improvement, winner == Game Improvement

Then there is the "not quite 100% game improvement iron, and not quite players cavity irons" like the Mizuno MX200

For me I get 3 degree higher launch off of these irons over the MP67's, but the extra forgiveness is night and day.

**Muscleback vs Not Quite GI or PC, winner = Hands down NQGIorPC

When you get down to comparing Muscleback vs Players Cavity (ie Mizuno mp 57)

To me I don't notice any difference in "workability" between these 2 styles of irons. I hit all my irons pretty high, that I stop 4 irons on slick greens within a few feet (from a good lie of course), so unless i'm going around a tree or something I don't work shots into greens.

I find I can work the ball just as easily with my Mizuno Mx200's as I can with the MP 67's , just requires a little more club face manipulation. However this shot is so rare, that I wouldn't base my decision on it.

**Muscleback vs Players Cavity, winner == Players Cavity.

I do not see a reason for anybody to play a muscleback. Now , this is probably because i'm not good enough :)

For me I don't even see the need to play Players Cavities. Simply put, everybody with a decent handicap should be playing Mizuno Mx 200's :p, anybody worse than that should be using game improvement or super game improvement.

HOWEVER, this is for using the clubs on the course.

The PRACTICE RANGE is totally different. I keep a Mizuno MP67 3 iron in my bag and practice with it on the range, as well as a Golfsmith 1 iron. When i'm hitting these 2 clubs the best on the range is also the time when i'm shooting my best scores. Excellent practice tool.

Put some practice in with really tough to hit clubs, but when your on the course, take advantage of the extra forgiveness.

[golfmonke]

Since this thread was started in

More than just the OP will read this post for information.

[Brer Hog]

I'm a high handicapper and against the advice of many, I now play blades. I could not get excited about golf with my old super game improvement Ping Eye 2-esque irons. Not so now that I am playing MP-67s. I played a round with someone this past weekend, who said, "Last spring, when we played, you couldn't even sniff some of the iron shots you have made today" which I attribute completely to having to improve my swing because I had switched to blades. And to do so, I had been spending time at the practice range. Knowing that I am going to have to strike balls well in a round, makes me want to practice, which makes me a better golfer. That is why I am playing blades and absolutely loving them.

Brer Hog

[pal51961]

I play the Macgregor PCB Tour irons. These are indeed forged by Miura. There are several ways to own Japanese forgings. I would recommend the Taylor Made Miura's due to their availability, they made thousands of sets over the years. The Mac's are actually rare due to the fact they made only 1000 sets. If you can find the PCB tours used, buy them. They offer the best of both worlds, forged and CB. If Macgregor (which is the finest american forger IMO) chooses Miura to forge these they must be looking for a higher standard than they are capable of producing in house. The MG 301's are the same club as the PCB, slightly different cavity shape. Since you won't have an opportunity to hit before buying, be careful and don't overpay. You can always sell them if you don't like them, so buy used. Make sure they feel right for you, don't force yourself to like a club for looks. Focus on feedback and confidence in a new iron. Good luck.

[CJL]

What do you find to be the biggest difference between these two types of wedges? I'm looking to purchase a couple new wedges and have heard great things about vokeys, but I've also heard good things about forged wedges as well. Any info/opinions would be appreciated.